Anything, Everything, or Nothing At All

[PowerBook Pete, the Mad Mod]

Leopard v Crocodile!

[Dave Palmer]

Totally tangential but somehow germane is when Chameleon Boy spoke directly to the reader regarding a certain web-headed character.  Written by E. Nelson Bridwell, one of my favorite writers.

[Richard Willis]

Irma Kruhl said:

These remind me of the earliest incarnations of  two members of the Brotherhood of Evil Mutants, namely the Scarlet Witch ("Wanda! Don't point your finger! You know it causes bad luck!")  and Mastermind, who debuted in X-Men #4 in 1964.  

In 1979 Marvel introduced Black Cat (Felicia Hardy) in the Spider-Man world. In addition to her acrobatic abilities she can cause bad luck to befall an opponent.

[Luke Blanchard]

Thanks, Irma. Creators may have discussed ideas for characters behind the scenes. So if I'm right in thinking that DC writers ghost-plotted for Marvel some ideas may have reached Marvel through that grapevine.

Thanks, Dave. There were more allusions to Marvel's material in DC's material in the era than one realises. The Sponge Man in Challengers of the Unknown #47, #51 looks like a riff on the Thing. In the first story in Challengers of the Unknown #46 the Gargoyle falls in love with a blind woman. That looks like another Thing reference. The villain in the supporting story in #42 has a big green "Mandroid". They reminded me of the Thinker and his android. Red (spoiler warning) temporarily gains eyeblasts like Cyclops's. I suspect Solomon Grundy appeared in Showcase #55 partly because of his similarity to the Hulk. Jim Shooter's very classy Legion story in Adventure Comics #348 was a combination of elements from Fantastic Four #6 and #17.

I'll think more about your list overnight, Jeff. The bit where the Challs fall down the shaft in Showcase #11 reminded me of the similar bit in the Mole Man story in Fantastic Four #1, and the capture of the other Challs at the start of a chapter of the bit where Banner and Rick are captured in Incredible Hulk #2. The GCD compares the cover story in Challengers of the Unknown #1 to Fantastic Four #24. The plots are unlike but the alien families are similar.

[Richard Willis]

Balloon Bombs in WWII

[Luke Blanchard]

Jeff of Earth J said:

The post you reference led me to research a possible "Challengers of the Fantastic" discussion from the angle of "who did what" on the Fantastic Four. I did not go beyond the Kirby issues of Challs, but here is what i came up with:

 

Showcase #6 - Sorcerer - Dr. Doom

-My first thought was Morelian was more like Diablo, but in Showcase #6 and Fantastic Four #5 Morelian and Doom lie to the heroes about their real objective. Your comparison made me realise it was part of Doom’s character to lie and double-cross others. He does it in #6 and #23 too.

-The bit with the banquet table reminded me of Fantastic Four #7. Doom arranges banquets for the heroes in Annual #2 and #87.

-Cadmus is referenced in another Kirby story, “The Cadmus Seed” from Alarming Tales #1. Imagery from this was recycled in his later work some number of times, including the Project story in Jimmy Olsen.

-Emergence of a giant from the water recurs in Kamandi #31, and the freezing sun resembles “Me” from #32, but Me proves friendly.

-Members of the FF get frozen into immobility in Fantastic Four #23 and #35.

 

Showcase #7 - Robots - FF #7 (Kurrgo's robot)

-Comp. “I want to be a Man”, Alarming Tales #2. A similar non-Kirby story from ACG is “The Iron Brain”, Forbidden Worlds #71, reprinted as “Man of Metal”, Adventures into the Unknown #148. The story was recycled as “Revolt of the Robot!”, Midnight Mystery #7, by “Pierre Alonzo” (=Leo Dorfman?) and Paul Reinman. I have goodish reasons for thinking Alonzo was Dorfman, but it might not follow “The Iron Brain” was by him as I don’t think recycled stories were always done by the same writer at ACG. (Elsewhere, too. Mort Weisinger had writers do recycled versions of others’ stories in the Super-books, and the supporting stories in the 1960s Silver Surfer were recycled.)

-Marvel Genesis notes the robot from Fantastic Four #7 was modelled after Gort from The Day the World Stood Still. That influence turns up again in Journey into Mystery #101, as the sequence where Zarrko returns to our time with a robot heavy looks modelled on the movie’s first encounter sequence. Zarrko’s time-ship in that story is like a bigger version of the Challengers #4 time-cubes.

 

Showcase #11 - Aliens - FF #2 (Skrulls)

-The urgency of the story - the Earth comes very close to destruction - reminded me of the urgency of the first Galactus story. It faces a similar threat in “The Plot to Destroy Earth!” in Challengers #9

-The “Tyrans” name reminded me of “Tyrannus” from The Incredible Hulk.

 

Challengers #2 - Monster Maker - FF #3 (Miracle Man)

-“The Monster Maker” slightly resembles “The Menace of the Atom-Master” from World’s Finest Comics #101, which the GCD credits to Bill Finger, but that story’s villain is only able to create illusions until the climax. (“The Fabulous Friends of Harvey Thurbush!” from Unknown Worlds #11, by “Zev Zimmer” involves mental images created through a machine which, at the end, become real. My first guess was Zimmer was Otto Binder, but I’m beginning to favour my alternative guess of Finger.)

-Re. the Miracle Man, Kirby drew a story for Adventures of the Fly #2 called “Marco’s Eyes” about a criminal hypnotist, but it lacks the illusion aspect. The Miracle Man’s theft of the atomic tank is a similar plot element to Mr Hyde’s seizure of the atomic sub in the “Thor” story from Journey into Mystery #100 (one of the Don Heck instalments). Producing illusions via hypnotism was Mandrake the Magician’s stock-in-trade.

 

Challengers #4 - Time Cube - Dr. Doom's Time Machine (FF #5)

-The brief Egypt sequence recalls Fantastic Four #19. Marvel also did Ancient Egypt stories in “Iron Man” in Tales of Suspense #44 (Kirby cover/Robert Bernstein script/Heck art; Elizabeth Taylor guests as Cleopatra) and “Dr Strange” in Strange Tales #124 (writing credited to Lee, but the story has points of resemblance to “Beyond the Veil of Time” from Adventures into the Unknown #105 by “Kurato Osaki” [=Dorfman?] and I suspect it was ghost-plotted). The protagonist of “The Terrible Time Machine!” from Tales of Suspense #3, drawn by Kirby, builds a time machine and travels to Ancient Egypt like Rama-Tut, but only means to loot a tomb and doesn’t become Egypt’s ruler.

-Nostradamus appears, depicted sympathetically, in the “Boy Commandos” story from Detective Comics ? Kirby also did Nostradamus items for Black Magic and Spirit World.

-Rocky smokes cigars, like the Thing later.

 

Challengers #6 - Slaves - FF # 19 (Rama Tut)

-I take it you mean Agar’s enslavement of June in “The Sorceress of Forbidden Valley”? June in this story somewhat resembles the Scarlet Witch. The transformation of a character to stone reappears in X-Men #11. The bit about the cigarette lighter is like the match and cigar from Challengers #4. The trope of impressing pre-modern people with such devices appears in stories by other creators, e.g. “Elm City’s the Dullest Place” from Unknown Worlds #2 by “Lafcadio Lee”. There’s also a variant: a time traveller tries to do this and it doesn’t work. Kirby drew such a story, “The Man from... Tomorrow!” from Tales of Suspense #21. But the GCD notes it was preceded by "Trapped by Yesterday!" drawn by Carl Burgos in Tales of Suspense #2. It appeared again as "Always Leave 'Em Laughing!", with writing credited to Gary Friedrich, in Chamber of Darkness #1.

-Re. “Captives of the Space Circus”, alien zoos and space circuses are recurring elements in DC comics. Examples include “Captives of the Alien Zoo!” from Detective Comics #326, and "The Super-Carnival from Space!" from Adventure Comics #198. The group escape trope recurs in Fantastic Four #93.

 

Challengers #7 - Shrunk - FF #16 (Micro-world of Dr. Doom)

-The plot of “The Beasts from Planet 9” - the Challs have to round up alien animals on Earth - is repeated by “The Secret of the Space Capsules” in #17. Also compare “The Man Who Tampered with Infinity” in #1, and “The Plot to Destroy Earth!” in #9. A rolling menace similar to the alien armadillo in “The Beasts from Planet 9” appears in Challengers #49, credited to Finger.

-Re. “The Isle of No Return”, Kirby’s first story where a person shrinks might be the instalment of “Blue Bolt” in Blue Bolt #4. Coping with being little in a big world also appears in his work in the second part of the “Green Arrow” giant arrows/Xeen Arrow story from Adventure Comics #252-#253, “The Menace of the Micro-Men!” from The Double Life of Private Strong,"The Man in the Ant-Hill!" from Tales to Astonish #27, and "The Man in the Beehive!" from Tales of Suspense #32.

-The fantastic thefts element of “The Isle of No Return” also appears in “The Man Who Tampered With Infinity” from Challengers #1. The thefts in that story reminded me of “The Fourth Dimension is a Many Splattered Thing!” from Alarming Tales #1. I suppose one might also compare Skrull Sue’s theft of the gem in Fantastic Four #2.

-The sequence where the FF find themselves before Doom in Fantastic Four #16 is similar to the sequence where the Challs find themselves before Tagorian in “The Man Who Tampered With Infinity” from Challengers #1. The heroes recover from the strains of a fantastic journey to find themselves in the villain’s power. The microverse concept appeared in Kirby’s work a few further times: in the Psycho-Man’s origin from Fantastic Four Annual #5, the Galactus/Microverse storyline from Fantastic Four #56-#59, and Mister Miracle #16.

 

Challengers #8 - FF #20

-Because the Molecule Man uses his power to make himself a king, like Drabny? Drabny’s takeover of Mordania reminded me of Magneto’s takeover of San Diablo in X-Men #4, and it’s also similar to Doom’s rule over Latveria, established in Fantastic Four Annual #2. The adventure is also a bit like a wartime story from “Boy Commandos”. The Puppet Master expresses a fantasy of royal power in Fantastic Four #8.

[Jeff of Earth-J]

Well done, Luke! You took my hastily jotted notes and turned them into a well-researched post.

I'm not convinced that Marvel was employing DC writers on the sly, but I do think it highly likely that he might have been recycling plot elements from competitors' stories. Although Kirby was well-read, he reportedly didn't read comic books he himself did not write. Many of the motifs used in his early work did eventually make their way into his later work, however, namely...

Cadmus from Alarming Tales #1 (as you pointed out) - Jimmy Olsen

Intelligent animals, also from Alarming Tales #1 - Kamandi (which was also a comic strip pitch)

Super-chair, also from Alarming Tales #1 - New Gods

Guy in space strapped to an asteroid, Race for the Moon #3 - Fantastic Four (Blastaar), New Gods

Atillan from "Tuk the Caveboy" back-up - Inhumans from Fantastic Four

Those are the most obvious examples I can think of.

[The Baron]

[Luke Blanchard]

Jeff of Earth-J said:

Many of the motifs used in his early work did eventually make their way into his later work, however [...] Those are the most obvious examples I can think of.

He had a recurring interest in the ancient astronauts theme. The version in The Eternals shows the influence of Erich von Däniken, for whose books there was a fad at the time, but it appears earlier in his work in the 1960s in the relationship between the Inhumans and the Kree, and at Harvey in 1957 in "The Great Stone Face" in Black Cat Comics #59.

The "mind-expanding trip" sequences from 2001 are there because of the movie's, but there's a similar sequence, long predating the movie, in "The Great Moon Mystery" in Blast-Off #1, intended for the late 1950s Race for the Moon.

He did a story about Thor's hammer for DC's Tales of the Unexpected #16. The GCD's page on the issue notes a couple of parallels to early "Thor" at Marvel and currently leaves who wrote the DC story open. He earlier used the Thor theme in "The Viking from Valhalla!" from Adventure Comics #75. Earlier still he drew the opening instalments of "Hurricane" for Captain America Comics. This was a remodelled version of the "Mercury in the 20th Century" feature from Red Raven Comics, but in this version the hero was described as the son of Thor.

In a non-Kirby story in Boy Commandos #7 Brooklyn has a dream involving Thor and Valhalla. The GCD attributes it to Don Cameron and Louis Cazeneuve. There were other versions of Thor in comics before Marvel's feature: in Fox's Weird Comics (not by Kirby, but he worked at Fox), in "Iron Ace" from Air Fighters Comics, in Batman #127. A Viking Prince story on the theme of the hammer of Thor appeared in The Brave and the Bold #3.

Kirby really poured himself into the art of 2001, and there's a progression in the early issues I missed as a kid: sub-man age, human stone age (depicting, I've seen it noted, the origin of government and religion), coming of the bronze age and the wheel (note Marak's non-metal armour and weapons in the opening sequence in #4). "Tuk", "Atlas" and Devil Dinosaur also reflected his interest in prehistory.

The cover design of Journey into Mystery #97 was recycled from Tales of Suspense #7. He had also done a related story for DC, "Invasion of Volcano Men", for Tales of the Unexpected #22. Note the similarity of the title to the story from The Avengers #5's. As with Thor, there was quite a history of volcano men stories in comics.

The Robot Hulk story from The Eternals resembles the story where the Hulk rampages in New York from Fantastic Four #25-#26.

Spirit World was a return to the matter of Black Magic, and partly recycled from it. In the Days of the Mob recycled subject matter from his crime work.

The Shan element in "Manhunter" from 1st Issue Special #4 looks a reworking the Council of Elders from "Gunmaster" in Hillman's Clue Comics/Real Clue Crime Stories. Kirby drew several instalments but not the first ones. (It might not follow he wasn't involved in setting up the series, as he and Simon ran a studio post-war. I don't have an opinion about that.) 

[Jeff of Earth-J]

"There's a progression in the early issues [of 2001] I missed as a kid: sub-man age, human stone age... coming of the bronze age and the wheel..."

"The Robot Hulk story from The Eternals..."

Kirby really had no interest in writing that story, but it was editorially mandated (despite him being listed as "editor"). I think the omnibus includes only his editorial essays but, if you read the letters pages in the original comics, there was a debate about whether Kirby's Eternals took place in the Marvel Universe or not. He eventually capitulated to editorial pressure with this story (after first depicting college students wearing Hulk and Thing masks, which was far from definitive), with the story of the robot Hulk (which was far from definitive, either). It eventually fell to Roy Thomas to fold the Eternals into the MU officially in Thor. 

[Jeff of Earth-J]

Last night the TV weatherman told me that, for anyone who lives in Arlington (which I do), the storm front was "literally on our doorstep," but I checked and it wasn't. FAKE NEWS!

[The Baron]

Hell, Kirby's Captain America and Black Panther stories were barely in the Marvel Universe.  I always had the impression that he didn't like being constrained by "continuity".

Jeff of Earth-J said:

"There's a progression in the early issues [of 2001] I missed as a kid: sub-man age, human stone age... coming of the bronze age and the wheel..."

"The Robot Hulk story from The Eternals..."

Kirby really had no interest in writing that story, but it was editorially mandated (despite him being listed as "editor"). I think the omnibus includes only his editorial essays but, if you read the letters pages in the original comics, there was a debate about whether Kirby's Eternals took place in the Marvel Universe or not. He eventually capitulated to editorial pressure with this story (after first depicting college students wearing Hulk and Thing masks, which was far from definitive), with the story of the robot Hulk (which was far from definitive, either). It eventually fell to Roy Thomas to fold the Eternals into the MU officially in Thor. 

[Jeff of Earth-J]

I always had the impression that he didn't like being constrained by "continuity".

That is definitely true... largely because he didn't read other people's comics.