According to Dan Didio, as reported here, there never was a Crisis on Infinite Earths in the new DCU.

 

No Infinite Crisis, No Final Crisis. No Zero Hour and no Identity Crisis.

 

Discus.

 

Edited to add: According to several sources, Identity Crisis is still in continuity. My mistake!

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Yeah, that’s when it was, issues #57-76 specifically, but the issue in question is #71(486). In it, Hank and Jan are in Las Vegas, on good terms with each other and contemplating reconciliation. The scene in question (discussed at some length on the old board) was in quite poor taste and involved an dripping wet Hank Pym… well, let’s just say he gave her a “massage” while at reduced size.

Anybody besides me getting to the point where they see various cut-off points in certain series, beyond which later events just "never happened"?

 

In "my" Marvel Comics universe, Hank & Jan never needed a reconciliation... because they were SUCH a perfect couple, they never broke up in the first place.

 

Actually, I blame Roy Thomas for so much bad that happened to them.  Because HE started it.  The moment he took over AVENGERS, he turned Jan into an idiot (which is not the same thing as "acting flaky"), and gave Hank his first nervous breakdown.  It's obvious to me, at least, that he either never read their solo series in ASTONISH, or he looked down his nose at it.

 

Some years back, Roy lamented how badly "his" characters were treated by later writers (specifically, at DC). But if you look at a lot of the comics he wrote himself... he wasn't treating them that much better to begin with.

DneColt said:

Some good work came about as a RESULT of those series --  ...Primal Force (just kidding... )

I LOVED Primal Force when it came out. It was exploring part of the DCU that disappeared when Vertigo was created- the dark, mysterious, magical part. The stories and art were both good, and the mysteries that were set up, only to be cut short because of cancellation, were ones that had meaning to the characters. I still want to know more about the empty shell that Red Tornado was in this series.


"Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog, it's too dark to read." -Groucho Marx

Check out the Secret Headquarters (my store) website! Comics and Games for Everyone!

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To Henry: Hank Pym suffered his first emotional breakdown after his first wife, Maria, was murdered by Communist agents, as related in Tales To Astonish #44, the first appearance of the Wasp who greatly resembled Maria Pym. So their relationship started off weird. Granted much as what happened afterwards: more breakdowns, inferiority complexes, new identities, the slap that will never go away, the divorce, new partners, it seemed that Hank and Jan's relationship grew weirder and very bitter at times.

Strange, though, how she said that she could not handle his vacations from sanity when she contrived to marry him during one such excursion in Avengers #60.

And I never saw a point to Quicksilver and Crystal as a couple!

To Dagwan: Also remember that Zero Hour's finest legacy was Starman.



Mark S. Ogilvie said:
I don't think I'd mind an expiration/renewal date, with characters getting recycled every few decades and re-introduced with a new look/continuity, but what I mind is when they try to have it both ways.  They had Crisis but everything still happened except Wonder Woman who was replaced by Black Canary... it should all or nothing.  Leaving the readers to guess and wonder doesn't work for me.  The companies should be able to make up their minds.

I have to agree with that. The idea that all the Justice League adventures still happened, but with Black Canary instead, still boggles my mind; it was like they were saying, "Hey, one chick's the same as any other."

 

But Black Canary, as wonderful as she is, ain't Wonder Woman! They are NOT interchangeable!

"To Henry: Hank Pym suffered his first emotional breakdown after his first wife, Maria, was murdered by Communist agents, as related in Tales To Astonish #44, the first appearance of the Wasp who greatly resembled Maria Pym. So their relationship started off weird."

 

Yeah, but see, to me, that's like the murder of Uncle Ben.  You EXPECT that sort of thing in AN ORIGIN STORY.

 

I do NOT expect or have any desire to see characters in an ongoing series subjected to REPEATED, CONTINUAL mental anguish that would put any normal person in a mental hospital for the rest of their life.

 

But some of these writers & editors strike me as being deeply sick, disturbed, hateful people, to treat characters the way they do.

 

I mean... look what they did to Hal Jordan over the years!  (And it started in the mid-60s already...)

 

Anyway, between their solo series, and those early issues of THE AVENGERS, plus the issues where they came back under Lee & Heck, Hank & Jan made a wonderful, if somewhat kooky couple.  More than once, if memory serves, Hank either thought or said outloud that he wished Jan would stop acting so silly, as he KNEW she was smarter than she appeared.  Meanwhile, most of her flightiness seemed for one purpose-- to lure him out of his deadly-serious shell. Is it any wonder over the years she became my FAVORITE Marvel heroine?  (The version BEFORE Roy got ahold of her.)

 

I suspect Roy having Hank have a 2nd nervous breakdown MAY have been a reflection of one of ROY's own personal comic-book obsessions... the inability to EVER get past any "origin" story. Roy is always the first one to jump any ANY feeble excuse to RE-TELL THE ORIGIN (usually with added detail but somehow nowhere near as good or entertaining as the original origin story).  Or he'll keep dredging up minor, inconsequential details everyone else had long forgotten, like some tiny modification to a costume (which he'll then do a 6-part story to "explain"). Or the way his last few issues of DR. STRANGE he replaced "Master of the Mystic Arts" (which always sounded so cool) with "MASTER OF BLACK MAGIC!", which only ever appeared in the first handful of episodes. Well, according to the origin, Hank had a nervous breakdown, following the MURDER of his beloved wife.  WHO WOULDN'T? So in Roy's world, Hank is a NERVOUS BREAKDOWN waiting to happen.

 

Not only that, you have Roy making Jan do genuinely STUPID things-- particularly, hiring a chauffer without doing a background check on him, so she'd find out he's one of Hanks' ARCH-ENEMIES.  And how many YEARS did that guy work for her without her ever finding out?? Geez!! Before Roy, Jan may have been flighty, occasionally accident-prone, but NEVER stupid.

 

I really wish Steve Englehart had not quit Marvel the way he did (CURSE YOU, Gerry Conway!!), as he went to a lot of trouble to have Hank and Jan rejoin THE AVENGERS, and it would have been nice to see what HE would have done with them, instead of what JIM SHOOTER did TO them.  It was quite noticeable that only a few months after Shooter had Hank have yet ANOTHER breakdown-- in one of Perez' issues-- that Chris Claremont & John Byrne (over in MARVEL TEAM-UP!!) went out of their way to "upgrade" them, as if a tug-of-war was going on between different writers, some bent on screwing characters over, others determined not to let it happen.

 

It's the exact same thing you can see if you examine Hal Jordan's entire history... you have those who feel he's a born hero, and those who feel he was "always heading toward" becoming a MASS MURDERER.  (yeah, right)

Philip left out that Hank was an older man who took advantage of the grief of a friends daughter when her father died to make a move on her. She was looking for a father substitute and he became her lover. That's a bit like Hank moving on his neice! So there is something a bit creepy about their relationship from that first story. It has some of the characteristics of an abusive relationship from the start.

And Figs left out that Hank knew Jan's father by reputation only and met Jan for the first time in TTA #44 so it wasn't like Hank seen her grow up (though he did see her shrink!). Jan was the aggressive one in pursuing a relationship and she needed to be. Hank was too withdrawn and insecure and would probably have stayed with the ants!

Yes Jan was young (18 years old) when she became the Wasp but she fell in love with Hank and Hank quickly succumbed to her charms. Abusive? He gave her powers and a purpose. Without either, she may well have become the ditzy socialite she pretended to be.

IMHO, of course!

 
Figserello said:

Philip left out that Hank was an older man who took advantage of the grief of a friends daughter when her father died to make a move on her. She was looking for a father substitute and he became her lover. That's a bit like Hank moving on his neice! So there is something a bit creepy about their relationship from that first story. It has some of the characteristics of an abusive relationship from the start.
D'oh! Perhaps if I'd read it 20 years ago instead of 20 months ago, I'd remember it better. Still - grieving 18 yr old and father substitute... Uh-uh.

It depends on how old we think Hank is. If he's still in his mid-twenties, and that's not that farout a possibility given his genius, then it's not creepy at all. And we now may still think of 18 year olds as children, back then teenagers dating older men and getting married that young was not unheard of.

And Hank did try to discourage Jan's romantic feelings but two people stuck in an anthill, things just happen!

"we now may still think of 18 year olds as children"

 

What's this "WE" business?

 

: D

 

I think the unnatural separation of age groups (the idea that people should "only" associate with people their own age) is one of the major elements in the slow disintegration of society in general.

 

 

I agree with that in principle, but there's associatin' and there's associatin'

 

Whatever way you cut it, the foundations of their relationship struck me as creepy when I read the reprint of their first meeting a few years ago.  It would still be creepy even if Jan had been 10 years older.  She basically wants to get funky with her dead dad and Hank doesn't see that as problematic, perhaps because through Jan he wants to do it with his dead wife, Jimmy Stewart-style.

 

It was a morass from the get-go.

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