Just in case everyone didn't think I was a total geek, I have compiled a list of how all of the Marvel "split books" evolved in terms of pages devoted to the heroes and their back-ups. I was inspired by Dandy Fosdyke's discussion of the split books. The info below was compiled by reviewing the Grand Comics Database. I think it's interesting how the number of pages devoted to the superheroes and their back-ups fluctuated up and down. All of the anthology titles below were 100% horror/mystery before the issues listed.
AMAZING FANTASY
Has 11 page Spider-Man and three short horror/mystery stories:
15
The first two issues of Amazing Spider-Man each had two stories each, probably originally intended for Amazing Fantasy
JOURNEY INTO MYSTERY
Have 13 pages Thor and two 5-page horror/mystery stories:
83, 84, 85, 86, 88, 89, 90 91, 92, 93, 94, 95, 96
Has 10 pages Thor and two horror-mystery stories (8 pages and 5 pages):
87
Have 13 pages Thor, 5 pages of Tales of Asgard, and 5 pages of horror/mystery:
97, 98, 99, 100, 101, 102, 103, 104
Have 18 pages Thor and 5 pages of Tales of Asgard:
105, 106, 107, 108, 109
Have 16 pages Thor, 5 pages of Tales of Asgard, 1 pin-up:
110, 111
Have 16 pages Thor and 5 pages Tales of Asgard:
112, 113, 114, 115, 116, 117, 118, 119, 120, 121, 122, 123, 124, 125
(This last pattern continued after the title change to Thor)
STRANGE TALES
Have 13 pages Human Torch and two 5-page horror/mystery stories:
101, 102, 103, 104, 105, 106, 107, 108, 109, 112, 113
Have 13 pages Human Torch, 5 pages Dr. Strange, 5 pages horror/mystery:
110, 111
Has 18 pages Human Torch and 5 pages Dr. Strange:
114
Have 13 pages Human Torch and 8 pages Dr. Strange:
115, 116, 118, 119
Has 14 pages Human Torch and 8 pages Dr. Strange:
117
Have 14 pages Human Torch and 9 pages Dr. Strange:
120, 121, 122
Have 14 pages Torch/Thing and 9 pages Dr. Strange:
123, 124
Have 13 pages Torch/Thing and 10 pages Dr. Strange:
125, 126
Have 12 pages Torch/Thing and 10 pages Dr. Strange:
127, 128, 129, 130, 131, 132, 133, 134
Have 12 pages SHIELD and 10 pages Dr. Strange:
135 through 163
Has 11 pages Dr. Strange and 12 pages of SHIELD:
164
Have 11 pages SHIELD and 11 pages of Dr. Strange:
165, 167
Have 11 pages Dr. Strange and 11 pages SHIELD:
166, 168
Title changed to Dr. Strange with 169 and began book-length stories
* Strange Tales 134 has a letter from me crabbing about the Torch/Thing stories. In the reply they hinted at changes coming next issue.
TALES OF SUSPENSE
Have 13 pages Iron Man and two 5-page horror/mystery stories:
39, 40, 41, 42, 43, 44, 46
Have 18 pages Iron Man and one 5-page horror/mystery story:
45, 47, 48
Have 18 pages Iron Man and 5 pages Tales of the Watcher:
49, 56, 57, 58
Have 13 pages Iron Man, 5 pages Tales of the Watcher, 5 pages horror/mystery:
50, 51, 52, 53, 54
Has 13 pages Iron Man, 4-page Iron Man feature , 1 pin-up, 5 pages horror/mystery:
55
Have 13 pages Iron Man and 10 pages Captain America:
59, 60
Have 12 pages Iron Man and 10 pages Captain America:
61 through 96
Has 12 pages Iron Man and 11 pages Captain America:
97
Has 11 pages Captain America and 11 pages Iron Man:
98
Has 11 pages Iron Man and 11 pages Captain America:
99
Title changed to Captain America with 100 and began book-length stories
TALES TO ASTONISH
Have 13 pages Ant-Man and two 5-page horror/mystery stories:
35, 36, 37, 42, 43
Have 10 pages Ant-Man and two horror-mystery stories (8 pages and 5 pages):
38, 39, 41
Has 11 pages Ant-Man and two horror-mystery stories (7 pages and 5 pages):
40
Has 18 pages Ant-Man/Wasp and one 5-page horror/mystery story:
44
Have 13 pages Ant-Man/Wasp and two 5-page horror/mystery stories:
45, 46, 47, 48
Have 18 pages Giant-Man/Wasp and one 5-page horror/mystery story:
49, 52, 53, 55, 56
Have 13 pages Giant-Man/Wasp and two 5-page horror/mystery stories:
50, 51, 54
Have 16 pages Giant-Man/Wasp and 7-page solo Wasp story:
57, 58
Has 18 pages Giant-Man/Wasp and 5-page Giant-Man/Wasp feature:
59
Have 14 pages Giant-Man/Wasp and 10 pages Hulk:
60, 61
Have 12 pages Giant-Man/Wasp, 10 pages Hulk, and 1 pin-up:
62, 63
Have 12 pages Giant-Man/Wasp and 10 pages Hulk:
64, 65, 66, 67, 68, 69
Have 12 pages Sub-Mariner and 10 pages Hulk:
70 through 98
Have 11 pages Hulk and 11 pages Sub-Mariner:
99, 101
Has 22 pages or Sub-Mariner and Hulk in single story:
100
Title changed to Incredible Hulk with 102 and began book-length stories
IRON MAN AND SUB-MARINER
Has 11 pages Iron Man and 11 pages Sub-Mariner
1 (and only)
Replies
That's interesting to see set out, particularly the case of the Thor series. Also interesting about your letter!
When we talked about the origins of Spider-Man last year I came to believe that the story in Amazing Fantasy #15 was likely created as the first part of an issue with the opening parts (through Spidey's rescue of John Jameson) of Amazing Spider-Man #1, minus the page with the origin recap. I argued my case here. There might be evidence against me in the job numbers or original art for the stories; I wouldn't know.
This post displaced the thread Review: 'The Savage Hawkman Volume 1: Darkness Rising' from the home page.
I would guess when TTA ended the Hulk's feature was more popular than the Sub-Mariner's, and it's plausible that when TOS ended Captain America's feature was thought to be more popular than Iron Man's (at that point Kirby was doing "Captain America"). Does that mean in each case Marvel had what it took to be the more popular feature continue the old title's numbering, and that at that point "Dr. Strange" was thought to be the more popular feature in Strange Tales?
I don't know if Marvel did Iron Man & Sub-Mariner because it wasn't sure it was willing to give them their own titles, or wanted to avoid launching four new titles in one month. (DC Indexes tells me Captain America and Incredible Hulk started first, Iron Man and Sub-Mariner the next month, Dr Strange and Nick Fury, Agent of SHIELD the month after that.) The latter motivation sounds plausible, so it may be which titles continued the numbering was partly driven by the decision as to in what order they were to be launched.
According to DC Indexes Capt. Savage and his Leatherneck Raiders started two months before Captain America and the new The Incredible Hulk series, and Captain Marvel started the same month as the solo Iron Man and Sub-Mariner titles. The first issue of the Spectacular Spider-Man magazine appeared the month after Dr Strange and Nick Fury, Agent of SHIELD started, and the first of Silver Surfer the month after that.
I would guess when TTA ended the Hulk's feature was more popular than the Sub-Mariner's, and it's plausible that when TOS ended Captain America's feature was thought to be more popular than Iron Man's (at that point Kirby was doing "Captain America"). Does that mean in each case Marvel had what it took to be the more popular feature continue
the old title's numbering, and that at that point "Dr. Strange" was thought to be the more popular feature in Strange Tales?
I don't think the continued numbering meant that one feature was more popular than the other, although I would guess you're right about the Hulk. I know that back in the 40s/50s there was some monetary advantage (avoidance of fees) to continuing the numbering of a book with a new title. I don't know if this worked the same in the 60s.
I don't know if Marvel did Iron Man & Sub-Mariner because it wasn't sure it was willing to give them their own titles, or wanted to avoid launching four new titles in one month.
I think launching the new, separate books was a big job for Marvel. I get the impression that they already had half-book stories ready for Iron Man and Sub-Mariner, so they used them in the single book while preparing the first issues of their separate books.
Richard, i think you're correct in your explanations. However, there was also the thought that each new title needed to recap the hero's origin, or at least at as a "first issue"... and that may have played a role in the sequencing of the titles. If you look at the six main spin off split books, there are re-tellings of the origin for Iron man in a back up feature in #1, a flashback sequence for Namor in Sub-Mariner #1, Cap has a flashback delusion in Captain America #100 (due to seeing Zemo return), Hulk gets his past retold by Asgardians in Hulk #102, and Dr. Strange has a basic enlargement and retelling of his origin in Strange Tales #168. The exception was SHIELD #1 that had absolutely nothing in the way of an origin in it.
[According to some accounts, Stan was furious and tried to compel Steranko to write up an origin. Steranko felt that anyone interested in the series was already hooked and needed no break in the action nor a retelling of the origin, and resisted it. You'll note that by issue #4, the cover is labeled "SHIELD Origin Issue" and Steranko is off the book. Guess Stan had the last word on that. Within a year, the series would be dead in the water, having lost its star creator.]
I had forgotten that they did the origin recaps. I recently read that Stan just couldn't wrap his head around Steranko's art style(s) and was constantly fighting with him, trying to get him to be more conventional. Also the SHIELD sales were never that great.
If Steranko said that origin stories were unnecessary at that point I tend to agree. It seems strange that they would think that a lot of people would jump on board just because they had separated the characters into different books. Maybe solving their distribution problems made Stan think a lot of readers had not seen the Marvel books before.
Roy Thomas, master of (and obsessed with) retold "ORIGIN!!!!!" stories, did the best of the retellings, with DR. STRANGE #169, with fabulous art by Dan Adkins. (I set up a page for "retold origins" at the SA site... before it went down...grrr)
The idea someone in one of my Yahoo Groups suggested was that Stan Lee felt a compulsion to keep his freelancers "in their place", and it was particularly strong with his TOP, BEST talent (Kirby, Ditko, Steranko). Steranko's NICK FURY was one series Lee wasn't writing dialogue for, so he had to try even harder to screw with things in order to put his "mark" on them. I now believe Lee was the one who caused "Project Blackout" to be done as an (ALLEGED!!!) "flashback", which caused countless continuity and logic problems with the story. I also believe (based purely on instincts and my own instincts as a writer) that Lee was responsible for Dr. Doom turning up in ONE panel of STRANGE TALES #167 (when, by all story logic, it absolutely SHOULD have been The Yellow Claw!!!!!).
"Hey, Jim-boy! I've got a GREAT idea!!!"
"CHRIST, Stan-- what the HELL is it NOW???"
To avoid tampering, Steranko would regularly turn in his episodes at the LAST possible moment. He was NEVER late. He NEVER blew a deadline. But between NICK FURY #4 and CAPTAIN AMERICA #112, Lee managed to make it SEEM like he did.
When Frank Springer visited Marvel, Lee asked him which series he'd like to do. Springer said NICK FURY, which makes sense, given Springer had done a run on DC's SECRET SIX. No doubt bugged by the lack of an "ORIGIN!!!" issue (just as had happened when Steve Ditko started Dr. Strange up-- I really believe Doc's origin was done 9th, not 3rd, and it's obvious if you look at the evolution of the artwork). Lee had Roy "Secret Origins" Thomas retell STRANGE TALES #135 (which was NOT in any way a "Shield Origin Story"). When Steranko heard Lee was planning to interrupt his run with the Springer episode, he threatened to WALK off the book. Lee called his bluff. STERANKO walked. "Thank YOU, Stan Lee."
A genuine SHIELD origin story finally surfaced in 1994. It was pretty damn good, too, which was a shock, considering how HORRIBLE Marvel's output had become by then.
My earlier comment (below) was misstated. I got confused by my reading of MARVEL COMICS THE UNTOLD STORY and thought I had read it. In reality, I heard it from Steranko's own lips at the recent Wondercon one-man presentation in Anaheim, Calif. I believe he also talked about turning work in at the last minute. He also went out of his way to praise Stan as a great guy. People can have work-related conflicts without hating each other.
Richard Willis said:
I recently read that Stan just couldn't wrap his head around Steranko's art style(s) and was constantly fighting with him, trying to get him to be more conventional.