I was going through my Tabloid collection, and a lot of them are in bad shape, but one I remember fondly was Marvel Treasury Edition #2 (D'74) which reprinted Fantastic Four #6 (S'62) which had the FF battle the Diabolical Duo of Doctor Doom and the Sub-Mariner by Stan Lee and Jack Kirby with Dick Ayers inking.
Namor had been revived in FF #4 and Doom introduced in #5 but this issue really defined them for the rest of the Silver Age and beyond.
In Marvel Treasury Edition #2, Namor's trunks are colored red. Is that true in the original?
Doctor Doom's look is altered from his first appearance to resemble his normal outfit.
We see echoes of the Sub-Mariner/Human Torch rivalry that has been going on since the 40s and the start of a new one with the Thing.
The Reed/Sue/Namor triangle continues full steam ahead here. I wonder if Namor gave her another photo?
To me, this was the issue that "made" the Fantastic Four yet it seemed like a pilot for the Sub-Mariner too!
Of course if Doom was going to send the entire building into space, what did he need the Sub-Mariner for?
My 1st FF comic was FF ANNUAL #3... which reprinted FF #6 in the back. WOW. So even though Subby didn't appear in the lead story, that comic served as my introduction to him. When I recently re-read all my 60's Marvels (in chronological sequence, for the first time ever), FF #6 struck me as one of the best and most "interesting" portrayals of Namor ever seen in the 60's. While FF #4 tried to return him to his "roots" (the kind of thing Roy Thomas tended to do WAY too often with almost every character he ever touched), Namor is much more complex in this story. I really didn't know what to make of him, the first time I read the story. Baddie? Hero? Somewhere in between? It's no wonder I took an instant liking to him, despite himself. Most stories from the 60's (and beyond), he had too much of an "attitude" and made a fool of himself. But how could you NOT like a guy who swims and plays with dolphins? Or that a "nice" girl like Sue Storm LIKES???
FF #6 is also my FAVORITE depiction of Dr. Doom. We still know very little about him, so he's mostly a mystery. His ego hasn't gotten completely out of control as it tended to be later. And Jack Kirby had NOT yet started making his mask "expressive". DAMN. I PREFER Doom shoving almost no expression on that mask. To me, it makes him SCARIER. Look at that last panel on that early page when Namor first meets Doom. WOW.
"what did he need the Sub-Mariner for?"
NOTHING. He was SETTING HIM UP. As Doom put it, Namor didn't realize HE was on the list of people Doom wanted DEAD.
And THIS makes a total, absolute FARCE of every single later story where Doom or Namor EVER, EVER attempted to form an alliance. If Namor had any brains, this kind of betrayal and attempted murder is NOT something he would EVER have forgotten. I feel the "Doom teams with Namor" CRAP was one more example of fanboy Roy Thomas trying to be (ahem) "nostalgic". It only worked ONCE. (This may be why I feel the entire run of SUPER-VILLAIN TEAM-UP should never have existed in the first place... the whole book was Roy's idea from the beginning.)
I feel Dick Ayers gives this book a crude, raw, "real world" feel to it, that places the FF squarely in a "real world" New York City setting, a stark contrast to the sterile, clean, optimistic fictional cities of DC at the time. (I understand Joe Sinnott inked the first page-- or two-- before having to give the book back, he found his schedule didn't permit him to continue. It's DIFFICULT to tell in the reprints I have, the line reproduction is so fuzzy.)
I have long felt that FF #1-2 would make a perfect "first" FF movie, if someone could figure out a sensible structure. FF #1, despite it's "thrown-together" chaotic feel, REALLY works for me. FF #2, far less so, it feels like it wasn't thought-through enough. I love the 1st Mole Man story, and looking back, find it very odd the '67 cartoon show SKIPPED it, and started with the sequel!
However... and this is especially true when you consider HOW MANY "2nd" superhero movies have 2 or more villains in them (usually to BAD results), but FF #4-6 would make a PERFECT "2nd" FF movie. It's got 2 villains, but the story structure is ALREADY THERE. You'd just have to tell the stories AS WRITTEN (what a concept!!).
Doom the Instigater. Doom the Agressor. Doom the Betrayer. It's struck me how more effective Doctor Doom was in his second appearance than his first! Silly stuff like college days, Blackbeard's treasure and a pet tiger can't compare with hurling a skyscraper into space!
But why even involve the Sub-Mariner? He just had to put his "grabber" in the Baxter Building, not the FF's floors so anyone could have done it! Why add another super-powered variable to the mix?
Possible answer: He lied about sparing the Invisible Girl so if he were planning her death too, then he may have known about Namor's feelings for her. Their conversation confirmed it. Thus if he succeeded in killing her, the Sub-Mariner would go after him in a savage rage, so it's in his benefit to eliminate the Avenging Son at the same time!
I only recall Namor "teaming" with Doom in a couple of issues of Sub-Mariner during the Silver Age but he had amnesia when he did! And Doom tricked and betrayed the Prince of the Deep several times during the run of Super-Villain Team-Up.
But then Magneto tried to use the Sub-Mariner in X-Men #6 with the Scarlet Witch instead of Sue Storm and Doom tried to form an alliance with the Wall-Crawler in Amazing Spider-Man #5!!
"Possible answer: He lied about sparing the Invisible Girl so if he were planning her death too, then he may have known about Namor's feelings for her. Their conversation confirmed it. Thus if he succeeded in killing her, the Sub-Mariner would go after him in a savage rage, so it's in his benefit to eliminate the Avenging Son at the same time!"
Funny, this NEVER occured to me all these years. But it makes perfect sense, and adds a 2nd reason for Doom wanting Namor out of the way... the 1st being, he saw Namor as a potential rival for world domination. And that would not do.
Later, when Doom crossed paths with Rama-Tut, he got rid of him thru the simple ruse of suggesting that they MIGHT be related (which was pure B***S***!!!). At least, that's how I interpret the scene.
Ironically, if Doom had kept his word not to kill Sue, AND, not betrayed Namor, Namor woujld have had no reason to go after Doom. (Of course, you CAN'T trust bad guys!) Further, if Doom hadn't trapped Namor with the FF, they MIGHT NOT HAVE ESCAPED that death-trap! (Isn't that always the way with villains? Hoisted on his own petard.)
The Fantastic Four were NOT going to escape. It was the Sub-Mariner, whom Doom involved, that saved them.
And I guess Doom didn't think that the Mole Man, the Skrull Cows and Miracle Man were any threat to him!
Marvel Treasury Edition #2 was a seminal comic book in my collection, too.
I never saw MTE #1 EVER but #2 was like a primer for a young reader. Not only was there the Doctor Doom/Sub-Mariner story but--
FF #11 was also reprinted in FF ANNUAL #3. So for me, the Galactus story was the nly one I hadn't read before. I had no idea that the entire thing was ALSO reprinted in MGC... those I missed. Just as well, the covers were awful. But then, getting Romita to do the Treasury covers wasn't the smartest move in the world, either...
There was such a strong effort to show the Sub-Mariner as, if not a super-hero, certainly heroic but conflicted. Yet he continued to be the enemy in Fantastic Four, The Avengers, The X-Men, even in Daredevil to an extent. This seem to culminate in Fantastic Four Annual #1 but he was not the villain in FF #33. Was that before or after his solo series in Tales To Astonish began?
All those were before the ASTONISH series.
I had a page at the SA Marvel site set up to show this... but since the site's down...
FF #4, 6, 9, 14
STRANGE TALES #107
FF ANNUAL #1
AVENGERS #3, 4
STRANGE TALES #125
AVENGERS #16 (cameo)
TALES TO ASTONISH #70-up
Thanks Henry! I forgot about Strange Tales #107 or as I knew it as Human Torch #7. That was a cover!
A new restoration AND a new coloring job!
Very nice, Henry. IIRC, Super Villain Team-Up #3 was the last actual team-up of Namor and Doom. After that for the rest of the series' run, Doom manipulated, controlled and humbled the Sub-Mariner (and the Avengers, the Shroud, the Red Skull, the Champions, Magneto, etc!)