I know a lot of people get tired of characters who get bumped off in comics coming back to life. Me, I just don't care. It has seemingly always been this way. It was happening well before I was born, and will continue (if comics are still going I guess) after I am gone.

Case in point I was reading a back issue and the beginning of this letter caught my eye:

"Dear Editor:

    If you kill off any more Legion members, make sure they stay dead. Man seems a little too omniscient when he can retrieve the fallen."

And the letter continues.

This is from a comic from 1966. Nearly 50 years ago. I read the first Batman archives not too long ago, and the Joker "died" in one of those issues.

It just brings to mind the old clichè,"The more things change. The more they stay the same."

The revolving door has always been there, and it will remain so.

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DC has been recycling its characters since Showcase #4 in 1956. The major difference is back then they treated every revival like a star, no matter how long their book lasted. Now they just throw out new people with old names and expect us to be amazed by their "cleverness" with their silly twists and their twisted silliness.

Philip Portelli said:

Depends on who you ask or what you've read:

There's BRAVE & BOLD #54 (Jl'64) but that's just Robin, Kid Flash and Aqualad teaming up with no mention of making it permanent.

The Teen Titans proper with Wonder Girl show up in BRAVE & BOLD #60 (Jl'65) but there was no origin so we don't know how they got together officially. In the Silver Age.

However in TEEN TITANS #53 (F'78), we do learn their origin with Speedy involved, if you consider that canon.

No, Philip, Randy has got it correct. There were only four original Teen Titans---Robin, Kid Flash, Wonder Girl, and Aqualad.  And I don't care what Teen Titans # 53 says---because it's wrong.

 

Various captions and dialogue in Teen Titans # 4 (Jul.-Aug., 1966) and # 11 (Sep.-Oct., 1967)---the two issues in which Speedy appeared as a guest star---make it abundantly clear that he is not a member of the Titans.  But the capper comes in Teen Titans # 21 (May-Jun., 1969), in which Wonder Girl specifically states that the Boy Bowman is the newest member of the team.

 

And one can't fall back on a "well, maybe" and say, "Well, maybe Speedy was the last one to agree with the idea of forming a team, in TT # 53.  That would make him, technically, the newest member."  When Wonder Girl pointed out that Speedy was the newest Titan, in issue # 21, she did so as part of a chastisement for his immature actions that were not in keeping with what was expected of a Teen Titan.

 

Ergo, Speedy couldn't have been one of the charter members of the team; too much previous information contradicts that notion.  Undoubtedly, when Bob Rozakis wrote TT # 53, he tossed Speedy into the origin because it was a Neat Idea, and he was unaware of the stories that contradicted it.  This was typical of the many blatant errors in continuity that cropped up in DC's titles in the '70's.  The fan boys promoted to writers figured that their memories were good enough and didn't bother to reference the details before writing their stories.

 

 

 

 

Okay, okay!

Randy Jackson said:

Yup, three of the four.

ClarkKent_DC said:


 

Really? Really?  photo eek.gif Three of the original first five Teen Titans are no more?


Better?


That's what I meant, anyway.

Ok the old one is gone and since her universe itself was destroyed bringing that Kara back would be hard, but at least have her remembered.

That's actually the opposite of what could have happened. Her universe wasn't destroyed, it was just combined into all one Earth, in which heroes who inconveniently had earlier versions all were done away with. So she *could* have survived that without a problem. Killing her was Marv Wolfman's plan for making Superman more unique.

But then John Byrne (and the editors) decided to make Superman even more unique by rebooting him entirely out of continuity (ie, just by saying it happened rather than doing a huge story about it). And they made Supergirl disappear altogether, just a few months after they'd killed her in Crisis.

It seems bizarre that they made a major event out of killing Supergirl, especially with a cover that has become iconic, only to have it completely wiped from history a few months later. They clearly thought Supergirl was a major problem!

Bringing back Kara wouldn't have been hard at all, but they would've had to do it because everything was new, so they had to bring back everything. I thought it was hilarious that, after Byrne said they had to "scrape the barnacles" off, he systematically reintroduced a lot of those barnacles--red kryptonite and Mr. Mxyzptlk especially, which seemed like two of the most irredeemable parts. Having Kara's ship land again would've been easy.

I also thought it was nonsensical that they wiped out Superboy, only to after the fact consider that he was the only possible reason that a Legion existed in the future. I didn't understand that logic stream, but I'd think they would have thought each move through that far if he was so important.

Supergirl's death was one of the most hyped and worst carried out ever. And now, how many Supergirls from Krypton have there been since, and how many are well remembered?

And I don't care what Teen Titans # 53 says---because it's wrong.

You are correct sir. You can look it up.

-- MSA

Now if you'll only come truly clean and admit that Batman would whup Captain America seven days a week and twice on Sunday...

ClarkKent_DC said:

Okay, okay!

Randy Jackson said:

Yup, three of the four.

ClarkKent_DC said:


 

Really? Really?  photo eek.gif Three of the original first five Teen Titans are no more?


Better?


That's what I meant, anyway.

There's a mistake in what you wrote:

Randy Jackson said:

Now if you'll only come truly clean and admit that Batman Captain America would whup Captain America Batman seven days a week and twice on Sunday...

Fixed.

 photo tongue.gif

Mark S. Ogilvie said:

So when Supergirl 2 dies in Crisis and they have that big send off and everyone sad and they do a retcon story that shows that she was even married and then suddenly a new Supergirl shows up and suddenly no one remembers the old one... Ok the old one is gone and since her universe itself was destroyed bringing that Kara back would be hard, but at least have her remembered.

"Crisis on Infinite Earths" killed Supergirl, then John Byrne's "Man of Steel" mini-series retconned Superman as the only survivor of Krypton.  One particularly good story in that period made use of the fact that Supergirl had never existed.

"Should auld acquaintance be forgot" by Alan Brennert and Dick Giordano appeared in the 1988 DC Special "Christmas with the super-heroes".  Deadman is bewailing the miseries of his existence, when he meets a blonde woman who can see him.  She gives him a good talking-to, telling him "We don't do it for the glory.  We don't do it for the recognition.  We do it because it needs to be done.  Even if no one knows we exist. Even if no one remembers we ever existed."

Deadman apologises for his whining, then asks her "Who are you?  How can you see me?  I don't even know your name."

As she leaves, she tells him "My name is Kara.  Though I doubt that'll mean anything to you."

I hadn't been much of a fan of Supergirl, or greatly affected by her death in "Crisis on Infinite Earths" - Barry Allen's death was a much bigger deal - but this story put a lump in my throat.

 

Mark S. Ogilvie said:

So when Supergirl 2 dies in Crisis.....

I always thought it was the first version of Supergirl that died. Am I wrong?

No, you are correct.  There was at least one prototype Supergirl in an imaginary story before Action 252, but that was a one-shot deal.  The Kara Zor-El that died in Crisis was the original AFAIC.

Alan Brennert wrote very few comics stories for DC (such as "To Kill a Legend" in Detective Comics #500, "Interlude On Earth-Two" in The Brave and the Bold #182, and the Batman: Holy Terror Elseworlds), but man, did he turn out some winners! 

Peter Wrexham said:

Mark S. Ogilvie said:

So when Supergirl 2 dies in Crisis and they have that big send off and everyone sad and they do a retcon story that shows that she was even married and then suddenly a new Supergirl shows up and suddenly no one remembers the old one... Ok the old one is gone and since her universe itself was destroyed bringing that Kara back would be hard, but at least have her remembered.

"Crisis on Infinite Earths" killed Supergirl, then John Byrne's "Man of Steel" mini-series retconned Superman as the only survivor of Krypton.  One particularly good story in that period made use of the fact that Supergirl had never existed.

"Should auld acquaintance be forgot" by Alan Brennert and Dick Giordano appeared in the 1988 DC Special "Christmas with the super-heroes".  Deadman is bewailing the miseries of his existence, when he meets a blonde woman who can see him.  She gives him a good talking-to, telling him "We don't do it for the glory.  We don't do it for the recognition.  We do it because it needs to be done.  Even if no one knows we exist. Even if no one remembers we ever existed."

Deadman apologises for his whining, then asks her "Who are you?  How can you see me?  I don't even know your name."

As she leaves, she tells him "My name is Kara.  Though I doubt that'll mean anything to you."

I hadn't been much of a fan of Supergirl, or greatly affected by her death in "Crisis on Infinite Earths" - Barry Allen's death was a much bigger deal - but this story put a lump in my throat.

 

When they redid the Supergirl who was with Lex Luthor for a while I got to know and like her, especially the team up with Mary Marvel, but then rebooted and she vanished into limbo so that they could bring in a new Supergirl who has been banished into limbo for the latest version of Supergirl. And I think I prefer that though I haven't looked seriously at a Supergirl since the one I liked vanished. I got to know and like 2 Supergirls and DC took them away, never again. It'd almost be like getting fond of a Robin.


...What " married original Kara " story are you referring to , Mark ?

  FTM , do you remember that DC , a few months after the last issue of COIE , declared that a " second wave " of Crisis had killed , off-panel , a number of the folks who were shown to have survived Crisis ?
Mark S. Ogilvie said:

It doesn't always spoil things when you bring in a new version of an old character, but it can be a problem because -despite what I often think comic book writers wish weren't so- fans can have long memories. So when Supergirl 2 dies in Crisis and they have that big send off and everyone sad and they do a retcon story that shows that she was even married and then suddenly a new Supergirl shows up and suddenly no one remembers the old one... Ok the old one is gone and since her universe itself was destroyed bringing that Kara back would be hard, but at least have her remembered.
I for one felt resentment when they killed off the Freedom Fighters and brought in replacements with many of the same costumes and powers but none of the history. The characters under the masks are just as important to me as the costumes and the powers.

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