It might be a bit presumptive of me to 'start' a discussion on only my first full day as a member here...but.... here goes...

Avengers 202 saw the end of Perez style 'clean' art and the beginning of a dull period before the big shake-ups of 211 and in my mind was never the same again....anyone any thoughts?

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What were the events behind the scene in the Hobgoblin reveal? It read like they meant for it to really be Ned Leeds and then changed their minds.

Not that it matters. The Spider-Man supporting cast had been so eviscerated at that point that if it wasn't Leeds it would almost have to be someone we didn't know. It's not much of a mystery if there aren't very many suspects.

It was promised that the Hobgoblin would be revealed as someone who had already appeared in the Spider-books. It seemed that Ned Leeds was the prime suspect much like Peter believed Leeds was the Green Goblin or that J Jonah was the Big Man. I can't recall what his motivation was or what turned him evil, besides marrying Betty Brant and having to associate with Peter, Flash and Harry! ;-)

However, without warning or any form of editorial communication or co-operation, Ned Leeds who had battled Spidey to a draw was murdered by nameless ninjas! That little conundrum had to be addressed so Ned was still the Hobgoblin but still not alive. Thus Marvel was left with a popular but deceased villain. So Ned became a pawn of another bad guy, one Roderick Kingsley who fought the Wall Crawler once and was promptly forgotten by all so his reveal had little or no impact whatsoever!

Then and now, I call "Shenanigans!"

According to Roger Stern, Hobgoblin was always supposed to be Roderick Kingsley, right from his debut in ASM 238.  Tom Defalco followed Stern on ASM, and he wanted Richard Fisk to be Hobgoblin and Roderick Kingsley to be the Rose.  I can't find a link to it, but I'm about 90% sure Stern didn't tell Defalco it was Kingsley.  At some point during Defalco's run on ASM, Christopher Priest - then known as Jim Owsley - became ASM editor.  At some point, Owsley fired Defalco and the clustermuck that was ASM 289 - Hobgoblin revealed to be Ned Leeds - was foisted.  Like the infamous Avengers 200, those who have their names attached to it all disavow it - Owsley, EIC Jim Shooter, and credited writer Peter David. 

This was late in Shooter's reign as E.I.C., and according to Owsley, he was coming down on the editors to come down on the creators for lateness and who knows what else.  Unfortunately, Defalco was also editorial in his day job, and Shooter was piling work on him, interfering with his freelance work.  A lot of office politics here and a lot of different versions; all in all, an unfortunate situation.

That I have a hard time believing. Who would have cared about Kingsley?  Leeds was shocking and Richard Fisk had a habit of assuming new identities. Both would have had more meaning than Kingsley!

Ah, Spider-Man,

I feel a draw back to this thread's beginnings -

"Did Amazing Spider-Man v1 really end with ASM #151...?

Hah!  Well done Richard.

That reminds me: Avengers v1 DID end with #202. It was replaced by its own clone!

Richard Mantle said:

Ah, Spider-Man,

I feel a draw back to this thread's beginnings -

"Did Amazing Spider-Man v1 really end with ASM #151...?

John Dunbar:

"Stern didn't tell Defalco it was Kingsley"

Let's see.  At the time... Roger Stern had become my favorite Marvel writer.  At the same time, Tom DeFalso was the person I felt was Marvel's WORST writer.

Now, who do you think I'd believe?  (Considering Roger Stern CREATED the villain in question???)

Actually, it just had its brainwaves imprinted on a new synthetic body.


Captain Comics said:

That reminds me: Avengers v1 DID end with #202. It was replaced by its own clone!

Richard Mantle said:

Ah, Spider-Man,

I feel a draw back to this thread's beginnings -

"Did Amazing Spider-Man v1 really end with ASM #151...?

Actually.... it just continued for many years shambling along thinking it was a respectable comics series, before eventually realising it was really a vegetable.

It's not a matter of believing, though.  Stern said he didn't tell Defalco (his editor) who Hobby was; Defalco hasn't, as far as I know, contradicted that.  When Defalco became the new writer, he looked at the clues, and he figured it was Richard Fisk. No big controversy really. The unmasking in ASM # 289 revealed Ned Leeds, written by Peter David at the behest of editor Jim Owsley.
 
Henry R. Kujawa said:

John Dunbar:

"Stern didn't tell Defalco it was Kingsley"

Let's see.  At the time... Roger Stern had become my favorite Marvel writer.  At the same time, Tom DeFalso was the person I felt was Marvel's WORST writer.

Now, who do you think I'd believe?  (Considering Roger Stern CREATED the villain in question???)

The book SUCKED after DeFalco took over!

I understand he used to do some decent writing for ARCHIE...

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