Recently on another board, a silver age fan posted a cover of the JLA issue where the Red Tornado debuted.

From somewhere back in the recesses of my memory banks, I dredged up that there had  been a controversey or at least a discussion about The Vision AND the Red Tornado having too similar of backgrounds and missions to have been a coincidence.

 

Not knowing where Roy Thomas may have drawn his inspiration from, and not knowing who were drinking buddies with whom back then, I could easily fall prey to the suspicion that either somebody at one company spilled the beans to somebody at the other....OR, that some guys got drunk together and brainstormed a similar story and then both went back home to create it.

It wouldn't be the first or last time that DC and Marvel both shared a story without knowing it...or that two creators collaborated to produce thinly veiled version of each other's characters bouncing from one title to the other.

In just a few years, this would be the basis of the infamous Rutland Hallowing Parade issues that ran parallel in Marvel's Avengers or Dr. Strange and DC's title as well.

 

Could this have been the genesis of the idea?  Or is it all wet?
What say you, oh Mr.s S.A.?    Any DC historians who can answer on behalf of Mr. Red Tornado?

The Vision's background I am familiar with.  How similar or different is it from Mr. Tom Terrific, er, Red Tornado?

Views: 3281

Reply to This

Replies to This Discussion

I agree.  He would be the definitive source.  Thank you, Henry, for sharing it.

Dandy Forsdyke:

"That was very generous of Roy Thomas to send that detailed personal reply, and thanks for sharing it with us, Henry."

You're welcome. I figured I might as well.  I was surprised to find this thread here only 3 days after the exact same topic had popped up on that Facebook page (and as far as I know, nobody else there is also here).

For some reason, I'm just reminded of the 2-page spread pin-up poster of the JSA that appeared in one of the JLA reprint giants.  It was the first time I saw some members of the group, and one of them, Black Canary caught my attention. I remember thinking, oh, she must be DC's version of The Black Widow-- as they BOTH wore FISHNETS!  (Remember Natasha's 1st costume?)  Recently for fun I colored a rejected Don Heck AVENGERS cover, and made a point of having skin tones where the fishnets were, as opposed to the color seen on the published cover.

Decades later, I realized that Black Canary was not a swipe of Black Widow... she was actually a swipe of The Black Cat (the one who rode a cycle). On the other hand, when I got the BC ARCHIVE book, I found it amusing that Carmine Infantino described BC as, visually, his idea of the "ideal woman".  His ideal woman is a HOOKER ???  : )

One thing to consider, though, is that Roy Thomas links his new android hero to a slightly-older villain, Ultron-5, making his appearance in AVENGERS #54-55. Has Thomas ever made statements about having a "grand plan" for the Ultron arc?  It certainly seems like he has something in the wind even in the "Masters of Evil" storyline, since Ultron the Cowl is shown as having a special mad-on for Henry Pym. From that one *might* deduce that Thomas had at least a loose sketch of where he wanted to go: that Ultron would be a mechanical Oedipus rebelling against "daddy," only to have the same process recapitulated when Ultron spawned his own "son."  If that's the case, then the new Vision would have existed as a "gleam in its creator's eye" long before Red Tornado made the scene.

 

Not that this has anything to do with the question of direct influence, of course.

Roy Thomas gave a very convincing answer on the X-Men/Doom Patrol concurrence and, as a mere comic-book reader, I can't argue with the statement of such a comic icon but it will always interest me that these very similar teams had the tag line of  'The Strangest Super-Heroes of All' and 'The World's Strangest Heroes' on their covers respectively.

I'm not even going to mention The Brotherhood of Evil (Mutants).

Gene Phillips:

"Ultron would be a mechanical Oedipus rebelling against "daddy," only to have the same process recapitulated when Ultron spawned his own "son." "

Interesting observation! 

In retrospect, I HATE everything that was done with Hank Pym (and Jan) from the moment Roy Thomas took over the book. (But that's me.)  Jack Kirby & Don Heck (and even Dick Ayers) all had more respect for those characters.

But Henry, would you agree that the handling of those characters was extremely inconsistent prior to Roy Thomas' taking over the book?

I look at the radical shift from Giant-Man going near bezerk over the gravel wounded Wasp in (what? Avengers #12?) and then an abrupt resignation of the prime 3 or 4 heroes prior to/in #16.... vs. the very oddly characterized "return" of Henry Pym in #27-28 and all the tragedy/angst that being stuck at 10 feet produces for the next two years or so...but especial the first year.

I mean, I don't think Stan could settle on a direction for Hank that he didn't reverse within a year... by the time Roy shows up, it's been what, 3 years of Avengers plots plus all of the Tales to Astonish stories gone under the bridge by then?

I guess I caught that comparison as early as Avengers #55 when Ultron described his origin... but it was a bit of a surprise when Henry Pym recounts not only that but also in just a few issues later, another "lab accident" which "creates" Yellowjacket.  Frankly, I kind of like the more recent EMH II take that the Avengers were NOT fooled by the costume change and more aggressive personality, but asked to play along and humor Hank at Jan's request.

Does Henry not say in Avengers #55 something about how his A.I. robot is evolving too quickly into an edipus complex?

Gene Phillips said:

One thing to consider, though, is that Roy Thomas links his new android hero to a slightly-older villain, Ultron-5, making his appearance in AVENGERS #54-55. Has Thomas ever made statements about having a "grand plan" for the Ultron arc?  It certainly seems like he has something in the wind even in the "Masters of Evil" storyline, since Ultron the Cowl is shown as having a special mad-on for Henry Pym. From that one *might* deduce that Thomas had at least a loose sketch of where he wanted to go: that Ultron would be a mechanical Oedipus rebelling against "daddy," only to have the same process recapitulated when Ultron spawned his own "son."  If that's the case, then the new Vision would have existed as a "gleam in its creator's eye" long before Red Tornado made the scene.

 

Not that this has anything to do with the question of direct influence, of course.

I took your advice Figs, and ordered as cheap a copy as I could find...it arrived today, and I've been skimming through it.

I see the Red Tornado story is a two-parter, and so I've now read it.  I enjoyed the back-story introduction by G. Perez and others that talk about how his tenure began.

Figserello said:

http://www.dccomics.com/graphic-novels/showcase-presents-justice-le...

 

#64 is in the above collection, Kirk.  I enjoyed many of these stories very much and hijacked Philip's JSA/JLA threads to talk about them.  It's a fascinating, transitional phase of DC/JLA history and worth the money for what you get.

Red Tornado first appeared in All-American Comics#20, cover dated November 1940.

The Vision first appeared in Marvel Mystery Comics#13, cover dated November 1940.

So even with the Golden Age versions we'll never know which came first.  



Luke Blanchard said:

Alan Scott was originally a railroad engineer! 

I know this is an old comment, but I'm a new member -- and this is a pet peeve of mine. Alan Scott was a civil engineer, not a railroad engineer. He didn't drive trains, he built the bridges that trains traveled over.

I believe the 70s revival of All-Star Comics made him a radio engineer. Apparently as far as DC was concerned an engineer was an engineer.

Alan Scott made most of his odd career changes during his original Golden Age run, where he went from civil engineer to radio engineer to on-air announcer. When he was revived in the 1960's, he was consistently the president of the Gotham Broadcasting Company, which varied in size from a "local" TV/Radio station to a national or even multinational communication conglomerate. He seemingly lost everything during the 1970's All-Star revival, but by the time of Infinity Inc., GBC was bigger than ever, and he was still in charge of it.

Reply to Discussion

RSS

Welcome!

No flame wars. No trolls. But a lot of really smart people.The Captain Comics Round Table tries to be the friendliest and most accurate comics website on the Internet.

SOME ESSENTIALS:

RULES OF THE ROUND TABLE

MODERATORS

SMILIES FOLDER

TIPS ON USING THE BOARD

FOLLOW US:

OUR COLUMNISTS:

Groups

© 2021   Captain Comics, board content ©2013 Andrew Smith   Powered by

Badges  |  Report an Issue  |  Terms of Service