So I finished my latest reading project, which was "Marvel Now" Avengers. That was, in effect, the complete runs of Avengers, Avenger A.I., Avengers World, Mighty Avengers, New Avengers and Secret Avengers. For purposes of clarity, it is the runs of series with those names which culminated in "Time Runs Out" and the cancellation of not only those titles, but the Marvel Universe.
And I have a few questions. Boy, do I have some questions.
So with SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER in place ...
My first question is: Did I miss something? I mean, I know what happens next is Secret Wars, but so many balls were up in the air at the end of Avengers #44 and New Avengers #33 that I wonder if I missed something I should have read. Because at the end of Time Runs Out ...
* Ultimate Nick Fury, Ultimate S.H.I.E.L.D. and the Ultimates are gearing up for war with Earth-616, but we never see what happens.
* We don't know what happens to Dr. Strange, Dr. Doom and Molecule Man, although we are led to believe that Doom's plan to defeat the Beyonders failed.
* Reed and Sue Richards, T'Challa and a few others are discussing a lifeboat, but we don't know who's going in it or how it works. (Later events tell me that the Richards clan goes, and probably Black Panther, but shouldn't some of that info be here?)
* We don't know what happens to Namor and the Cabal, who are last seen on Ultimate Earth.
* We don't know what happens to the bulk of the Avengers, those that stayed on Earth while the Rogue Planet and Sol's Hammer wiped out Gladiator's interstellar fleet. Did the final incursion kill them all, or what?
* Several scenes are given over to Cyclops becoming involved, but he never does. Does that happen somewhere else?
Thankfully, some stories do come to an end: Thor, Hyperion, Starbrand, Nightmask, Captain America and Iron Man are killed. Probably. I'm guessing everybody on the helicarrier that squashes Stark and Rogers gets killed too, so maybe Maria Hill gets a heroic death.
But there are tons of loose ends. Since everything starts over in Secret Wars (and again AFTER Secret Wars), there's no need for serialization -- everybody's story could have a definitive and satisfying end. That so much is left unfinished just seems odd.
I'm guessing The Ultimates, Avengers & X-Men: Axis, Fantastic Four and maybe some final issues of various solo series (were they collected in one place?), which I did not read, could inform some of this. Are some titles without "Avengers" in the title super-relevant and necessary to understand this story? Should I buy and read them, O Faithful Ones?
Meanwhile:
* What was Doom's plan to defeat the Beyonders? It looked like he threw a building at them. I didn't track that at all.
* Where were Thing and Torch during all this? The other half of the FF were all over this.
* Why was Steve Rogers so consumed with punishing Tony Stark at the end of the world? That's just dumb. Try to save the world, Steverino. If you fail, Tony will be killed like everyone else. It's petty to indulge in this vendetta, and Steve Rogers has never been petty.
* Did we ever learn why Thor was unworthy? (I read Original Sin, so I know it's not there.)
* Maximus is hatching a plan on Ultimate Earth. What was it? Where was it revealed? A whole page was given over to it, so it couldn't have been nothing.
* What happened to Captain Universe? Did she just die right after beating up Steve and Tony?
* How and why did Thor get a metal arm?
* How did Hulk get smart between Avengers #34 and Avengers #35?
* Where was Thor Woman, or Thorette, or whatever? Unworthy Thor was in the fight, so where was she?
* Come to think of it, why didn't the Earth's pantheons of gods get involved? Maybe they were, and busy fighting the gods of the incursions worlds. Was that shown somewhere?
* Come to think of it, why wasn't everyone in the universe involved, in every universe that had the capacity to figure out what was going on? I know that they had to limit the story somehow, but everybody in the multiverse had skin in the game, and nobody but the Earth-616 heroes seemed to try to do anything about it.
* I was never really clear on Jonathan Hickman's Hyperion. Was he an all-new one, or one we'd seen before? Is he the same one as the one we have now, or a different one? There have been so many ...
Enough questions. Now some observations:
1. The heroes fought each other in Civil War. Then they fought each other in Time Runs Out. No wonder Civil War II seems so played out and boring and isn't selling. We've seen this twice already, and in recent memory. And neither story had any lasting consequence. Find a new plotline, Mr. Bendis.
2. All the heroes of Earth (and for a little while, the readers) thought Namor was killed. Then they killed him "again" in the post-Secret Wars Squadron Supreme. Had I read these books in order at they came out, I would have been a bit annoyed that they were playing the Namor Death Card a second time.
3. If Thor had to die in heroic manner, I sure would like to have seen him at full strength, in all his glory, wielding Mjolnir with both arms. This Thor was halfway to dead already. It was almost a mercy killing.
4. I loved the Sue Storm reveal. We were prepped for this by Civil War, so this was a surprise. And a welcome one, because I have never believed, going back to when the Richardses got separated in the '70s for a time, that this marriage would ever founder. As presented, the two splitting would take a lot more than we've ever seen.
5. Even had I read all this at the time in a vacuum and nobody told me about Secret Wars, it was obvious from the point that Atlantis and Wakanda were destroyed that a big Reset had to happen. It's like when you're reading a superhero book and a major character dies. You glance at your watch and guess how long it'll be before someone goes back in time and fixes it all. In the meantime, you can get your jollies guessing which other major characters will temporarily die.
6. I loved the Great Society bits. I guess I'll always be a sucker for alternate-dimension heroes, going all the way back to "Crisis on Earth-One." Weird, though, that the team was Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, Green Lantern, Flash, Martian Manhunter -- and Dr. Fate. I guess "The Norn" was needed for plot purposes, but Aquaman's probably feeling a bit slighted.
7. I had to laugh that Iron Man had zero -- repeat, zero -- chance against The Flash Boundless. Always figured the classic Justice League would make mincemeat of any team of Avengers in a fair fight.
8. At the end of the day, none of this mattered. It brings to mind Shakespeare's famous quote about "sound and fury," since everything was going to start over. That being said, when you have that kind of freedom, you can write any story you want. So I kinda wish it had been a better one.
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You know I kind of found myself liking this sequence as it happened even though I had no real idea of what was going on - which is why I can't answer any of the questions you pose but I really am aware that I am highly unlikely to attempt to read it all again - it feels too inpenetrable and after it and Secret Wars promised so much - I'm a bit disappointed in the 'new' Marvel era they ushered in.
Wow Cap, that's a lot! I liked a lot of the Hickman stuff but it's so dense I'd probably have to re-read to recall a lot of the details. One thing I do seem to remember is that this was a new Hyperion though.
Last I saw Thor still wasn't worthy and no one has any idea why. He did find the Ultimate Thor's hammer, maybe you don't have to be as worthy to get that one?
So I sat down and read the Secret Wars HC. Turns out my feeling was correct that there was more to Time Runs Out than was contained in the HC of that name -- Secret Wars is a continuation of that story, not a Reset button. That's a bit of bait and switch I would hope was beneath a major publisher, but maybe they were trying to play their cards close and not spoil anything. I'll try to look at it that way, anyhow.
So here are some answers to the questions I asked above:
* Ultimate Nick Fury, Ultimate S.H.I.E.L.D. and the Ultimates are gearing up for war with Earth-616, but we never see what happens.
I was afraid I was going to have to buy the last Ultimates trade to find out, but no, the answer is right here. Marvel-1610 attacks Marvel-616, and fisticuffs and explosions ensue. I think 616 wins on points, but the destruction of both universes makes it a Pyrrhic victory.
* We don't know what happens to Dr. Strange, Dr. Doom and Molecule Man, although we are led to believe that Doom's plan to defeat the Beyonders failed.
Revealed in Secret Wars. Doom's plan DID work, and Owen Reece absorbed the Beyonders' power, which Doom can tap, and does, to snatch together pieces of various universes and hold them together as Battleworld. Oh, and to elevate himself to God Emperor Doom. Strange, who refused the power out of an awareness of his limitations, comes along to help Doom preserve as much as possible.
* Reed and Sue Richards, T'Challa and a few others are discussing a lifeboat, but we don't know who's going in it or how it works. (Later events tell me that the Richards clan goes, and probably Black Panther, but shouldn't some of that info be here?)
I don't think they ever explain quite how the lifeboat works, but it does. And survivors of the previous Earth include Mr. Fantastic, Black Panther, Captain Marvel, Spider-Man (Peter Parker), Thor (Jane Foster), Cyclops and Star-Lord. Sue, Valeria and Franklin came along, but were believed lost on the way (and if I'm reading this right, they actually did die, but were re-created by Doom).
* We don't know what happens to Namor and the Cabal, who are last seen on Ultimate Earth.
Secret Wars reveals all. Reed "The Maker" Richards of Earth-1610 also built a lifeboat, based on the Earth-616 blueprints, stolen by, I think, Black Swan. Maker, Swan, Namor, Maximus, Terrax, Thanos and two of Thanos' generals (Proxima something and her husband) escape. Miles Morales does, too, by accidentally stowing away.
* We don't know what happens to the bulk of the Avengers, those that stayed on Earth while the Rogue Planet and Sol's Hammer wiped out Gladiator's interstellar fleet. Did the final incursion kill them all, or what?
We do see finally Black Widow and Spider-Woman's final moments. Also Manifold's (I think). Also Rocket Raccoon's and Groot's. Hulk, She-Hulk, Nightcrawler and Colossus were on Earth-1610 when last seen, and presumably died there. Combined with the survivors in the lifeboat, most of the characters I was curious about are accounted for.
* Several scenes are given over to Cyclops becoming involved, but he never does. Does that happen somewhere else?
Nope, happens here. He combines with the Phoenix force and attacks Doom first chance he gets. All that build-up in Time Runs Out leads to that fight.
* What was Doom's plan to defeat the Beyonders? It looked like he threw a building at them. I didn't track that at all.
This was revealed in Secret Wars, and not in Time Runs out, so I feel better -- I wasn't supposed to know what happened. What looked like a building that Doom threw at The Beyonders was actually a bunch of Molecule Men in a big crate that looked like a building. The Molecule Men were created by The Beyonders as bombs strong enough that each could kill a whole universe. So dozens of 'em packed together were strong enough to kill The Beyonders.
* Where were Thing and Torch during all this? The other half of the FF were all over this.
I still don't know this one.
* Why was Steve Rogers so consumed with punishing Tony Stark at the end of the world? That's just dumb. Try to save the world, Steverino. If you fail, Tony will be killed like everyone else. It's petty to indulge in this vendetta, and Steve Rogers has never been petty.
Evidently the answer to this is "bad writing."
* Did we ever learn why Thor was unworthy? (I read Original Sin, so I know it's not there.)
As noted above, we STILL don't know why Thor is unworthy.
* Maximus is hatching a plan on Ultimate Earth. What was it? Where was it revealed? A whole page was given over to it, so it couldn't have been nothing.
Evidently the lifeboat was the master plan.
* What happened to Captain Universe? Did she just die right after beating up Steve and Tony?
We are given no further information. But she must have died with the Earth-616 universe, by definition.
* How and why did Thor get a metal arm?
Still don't know this one.
* How did Hulk get smart between Avengers #34 and Avengers #35?
Still don't know this one.
* Where was Thor Woman, or Thorette, or whatever? Unworthy Thor was in the fight, so where was she?
I still don't know where she was during Time Runs Out (doing something in her own title, maybe?) but she joined the Avengers to repel Earth-1610, and was snatched into the lifeboat by Manifold.
* Come to think of it, why didn't the Earth's pantheons of gods get involved? Maybe they were, and busy fighting the gods of the incursions worlds. Was that shown somewhere?
Secret Wars gives no information on this, but since The Beyonders were killing the Eternitys and Living Tribunals and such of each universe, it stands to reason they'd squash the less powerful pantheons (casually) if the need arose.
* Come to think of it, why wasn't everyone in the universe involved, in every universe that had the capacity to figure out what was going on? I know that they had to limit the story somehow, but everybody in the multiverse had skin in the game, and nobody but the Earth-616 heroes seemed to try to do anything about it.
Secret Wars offers nothing new, and I think this one is gonna bug me. The only place we see anything like this happen is when Gladiator pulls together the Shi'Ar, Kree, Skrull, Annihilation Wave and others in a fleet to kill an Earth. But, inexplicably, they elect to kill OUR Earth, their OWN universe's Earth, rather than the invading one. That makes no sense at all, especially since Gladiator made a lot of sad noises about how much they owed the Avengers. Really, big guy? Then don't kill them! Kill the OTHER guys, nitwit!
* I was never really clear on Jonathan Hickman's Hyperion. Was he an all-new one, or one we'd seen before? Is he the same one as the one we have now, or a different one? There have been so many ...
Said above that he was a new one. Good to know.
So there are still some things I don't know, and unless someone else can help out, I will never know. And there are some things about the story that don't hold together, but most of it does, which is a good batting average for something this huge.
I do have to point out that Secret Wars can (mostly) stand alone, but Time Runs Out cannot. That massive omnibus is a story without an ending, because Secret Wars IS the ending. They should be labeled Parts I & II, and since they're not, I call shenanigans.
One thing I do love, though, is the ending. The 616 universe ends in a fight between Mr. Fantastic and Dr. Doom, because it should. That's the theme that's always run in the background of the MU: Reed's vision of an expanding universe of knowledge and freedom, versus Doom's vision of all possibility shrunk down small enough that he can grasp it in his mailed fist. We can call these differences in philosophy good and evil if we choose to, although there's no denying Doom's insatiable need for control is what saved enough of the universe to start again. It's also undeniable that Secret Wars showed that his vision was too small to survive indefinitely, and Reed was needed to set it on the course to sustainability. But that fight was always there, and since this is comics, we usually saw it work out through fisticuffs and explosions. But it was a long-running philosophical battle that is arguably the basic underpinning of the MU since 1961. And now we see it end, with Secret Wars showing how limited Doom's vision is, and with the All-New, All-Different Marvel Universe, we see how much more expansive -- and objectively better -- Reed's is.
Further, the 616 universe started with Mr. Fantastic and his family in Fantastic Four #1, and ends in Secret Wars #9 with him and his much-larger family -- with the promise that his family, and the rest of the universe, will continue to grow. Thematically, that's a nice touch.
Oh, and Time Runs Out starts with someone saying "Everything dies," and ends with someone saying "Everything lives." That was a bit ham-handed, but I appreciate the effort.
Wait, I thought of two more questions, which are only tangentially related:
1) How did Captain America turn old? He was young in the early part of Time Runs Out, IIRC, and was later presented as old without explanation. Presumably we were supposed to know from reading Captain America, which I wasn't at the time.
2) What was the long-term result of Avengers & X-Men: Axis, which I did not read?
a) Doom was depicted as altruistic in Avengers World #15-16, and resurrected Stature (which seems sort of pointless, given that Secret Wars would soon present the opportunity to resurrect anybody), but in the latter parts of Time Runs Out and Secret Wars he was his old nasty self (presumably after the re-inversion wave). Is there any more to Doom's story as a good guy?
b) Wikipedia tells me that Iron Man, Sabretooth and Havok avoid the re-inversion wave. Did that have any repercussions, or was it all wiped away by Time Runs Out before anything meaningful happened?
c) Can anyone recommend Axis?
Funny thing about the pantheons, when the Beyonder first showed up one of the major players who took him the most seriously was Mephisto, did he even show up in this series?
I can answer that one with fair certainty
No, no-one can.
Captain Comics said:
Unworthy Thor #1 came out on Nov 2. It's a five issue mini series which I think is supposed to answer this question. I have it but haven't read it yet; I will report back after I have.
This sounds like they're making everything up as they go along and nobody's checking to make sure it all fits together. Were the editors fighting with each other on where they were going with this?
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