A couple of weeks ago, I was reading an article by Geoff Johns talking about his new Aquaman book and he stated that he felt Aquaman was an "A List" character. Now personally, I've never considered Aquaman "A List" and chalked it up to Johns exaggerating to promote his new book. Then, the other day, I was reading the comments about some Green Lantern announcement and a Marvel Zombie was claiming that DC's only "A List" characters were Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman and everything else was "C List" or below. Now obviously that's not correct, the poor "B List" is getting no respect, but it did get me thinking about how I'd define A, B, C, and D list and classify DC's characters; results below.
“A List” characters
Characters that are relatively known to the general public who can continuously carry a series (and possibly multiple series’).
1. Superman
2. Batman
3. Wonder Woman
4. Green Lantern
5. The Flash
Cusp
-1- Aquaman
-2- Green Arrow
-3- Shazam (Captain Marvel)
I think a case could be made that all 8 of these characters are somewhat known to the general public. The top five have all had live action movies and/or tv shows. Green Arrow received a lot of exposure through Smallville and Aquaman seems to have hit the collective conscience as a joke if nothing else, therefore, with a solid comic book presence I could see both of them "moving up" to "A List". Sadly, Captain Marvel seems to be getting less exposure and "dropping off" of the "A List".
“B List” characters
Characters that are relatively known to the comic buying public, have had their own series for an extended period (31+ issues), and are not affiliated/supporting cast of A List characters.
1. Aquaman 16. Lobo
2. Green Arrow 17. The Demon
3. Shazam 18. John Constantine
4. Hawkman 19. Shade The Changing Man
5. Martian Manhunter 20. Booster Gold
6. Plastic Man 21. Hitman
7. Blue Beetle 22. Manhunter
8. Captain Atom 23. Warlord
9. The Question 24. Sgt. Rock
10. Swamp Thing 25. Blackhawks
11. The Spectre 26. Jonah Hex
12. Dr. Fate 27. Static
13. Firestorm 28. Sandman
14. Starman 29 *4th World
15. Animal Man 30.*Arion
Cusp of the B List
-1- Hawk and Dove
-2- The Ray
-3- Resurrection Man
-4- Hourman
Putting 4th world as a character is a bit of a cheat but I feel they're so interrelated that they don't really stand that well on their own, however, the concept is important to DC and well known to the comic buying public. If I had to break it out, Darkseid and Mr. Miracle might qualify as "B List".
Arion is another iffy one. He's had the exposure in the past and he's even been prominent as recently as Kurt Busiek's Superman run but I'm not sure he's really that prominent now.
The ones on the cusp of the "B List" had decent length runs but not 31+ issues. With the new titles in September, Resurrection Man and Hawk & Dove are getting a new push while the Ray and Hourman seem to be dropping into more obscurity. (Again, I cheated a little. I chose 31+ issues because I didn't feel the Ray should be considered "B List".)
“C List” characters
This level would comprise two types of characters. First, prominent affiliated characters and supporting cast of A List characters that have at one point carried their own books. Second, team members that are relatively known to the comic buying public.
Superman derived
1. Superboy
2. Supergirl
3. Steel
4. Lois Lane
5. Jimmy Olsen
Batman derived
1. Robin
2. Nightwing
3. Azrael
4. Catwoman
5. Batgirl
6. Oracle
7. Joker
8. Harley Quinn
Green Lantern derived
1. Guy Gardner (has been marketed separately from Green Lantern)
Flash derived
1. Impulse (has been marketed separately from Flash)
Sandman derived
1. Death
Titans affiliated
1. Cyborg
2. Raven
3. Beast Boy
4. Starfire
5. Wonder Girl
6. Deathstroke
7. Hawk and Dove
Doom Patrol affiliated
1. Robotman
JSA affiliated
1. Mr. Terrific
2. Wildcat
3. Jay Garrik
4. Alan Scott
5. Sandman
6. Black Adam
7. Stargirl
8. Powergirl
9. Hourman
Infinity Inc. affiliated
1. Jade
2. Obsidian
Suicide Squad affiliated
1. Deadshot
Outsiders affiliated
1. Black Lightning
2. Metamorpho
Justice League affiliated
1. Black Canary
2. Zatanna
3. Atom
4. Ted Kord
5. Fire
6. Ice
7. Elongated Man (& Sue)
8. Hawkgirl (Hawkwoman)
REBELS affiliated
1. Adam Strange
Freedom Fighters affiliated
1. Uncle Sam
2. The Ray
Legion affiliated
1. Lightning Lad
2. Cosmic Boy
3. Saturn Girl
4. Braniac 5
5. Mon-El
6. *Wildfire
7. *Dawnstar
8. *Chameleon Boy
9. *Ultraboy
6 to 9 are iffy but I’d argue they’re more prominent than the other members.
Determining "C List" vs. "D List" is probably the most difficult. The entire list is subjective but this seems like the area where it would be hardest to make a consensus. My choices were made based on the characters I would expect to make an impression on a casual reader of a team book, whether due to historical significance, because they've been featured other places than just in the team, or because they seem to be given more of a regular focus than other members. I didn't choose these based on my favourites as I've left out most of my favourite Legionnaires and other favourites such as the Phantom Stranger from the JLA and Cyclone from the JSA.
I thought it was kind of interesting that Resurrection Man almost made the "B List" but because he hasn't really been featured elsewhere, I couldn't include him on the "C List".
“D List” characters
Everybody else, as no one deserves an F. ;)
One could argue that many of the villains should be higher than D list but for the most part they wouldn’t be able to carry the focus of a series (with above noted exceptions).
Well, that's my thoughts. Anyone agree? Disagree?
PS. If anyone's up to it, I'd love to see thoughts on what the Marvel character strata would look like.
Replies
The nature of lists is that they provoke argument; no two are ever the same, and everybody's got their own ideas. That being said, Border Mutt, I admire the critical thinking you show in your list. You've obviously thought out your own "rules" thoroughly, and apply them consistently. No doubt you had to "kill your babies" more than once.
As for my take, I'm content to watch the debate flow where it will. My only comment is that you're a lot more generous than me! :)
Mister Mutt, I respectfully contend that Superboy (Young Clark Kent), Supergirl (Linda Lee Danvers), Robin/Nightwing (Dick Grayson), Batgirl/Oracle (Barbara Gordon), Lois Lane, Jimmy Olsen, the Atom, Black Canary, Zatanna, the Justice Society and Adam Strange (REBELS Affliated, indeed! An Outrage Sir!) are solid B-Listers with the first six as "just-about" A-Listers. They are that important. Each have had long careers, supported their own titles and appeared in other media.
The opposite side of the coin is that there is no way to convince me that Hitman, Shade the Changing Man, Animal Man, Lobo (wha??) and Arion (double wha??) outrank them in stature and/or status. They are simply not characters that are recognizable as solid performers or especially vital to the DC, though they do add another dimension to it. Nor do I say their own titles are neglible, merely off the radar as compared to the others.
And the Legion of Super-Heroes as a team and concept are A-List material! LLL!
My wife told me 30 mins before going to a fancy dress party that she needed a costume. I drew a little Daily Planet press card that she could wear around her neck and she wore a dark business suit. Everybody recognised her straight away. (She also brought along a Superman comic in her handbag in case anyone needed a clue. No-one did, but a few people asked "Do they still make these?" Very sad.
J'accuse, Marvel and DC!!)
But if you have restricted supporting affiliated characters, fair enough.
I'd respectfully contend that Swamp Thing should be higher up the B list. He's had 2 movies, at least one by Wes 'Horror-meister' Craven, and two game-changing runs. Moore's series is practically a mainstream hit, never mind a comics hit. Anyone who is interested in well-told stories knows it or knows of it. Likewise Gaiman's Sandman is practically a mainstream fixture, being well appreciated beyond our little ghetto. Death, of course being the most iconic and well-known of those characters. She is much better known in the wider culture than your three Charlton heroes at the top end of your B list.
That Wonder Woman is an A-list star and so little has been done with her is another damning indictment of DC.
Philip, I agree the Justice Society and the Legion are important concepts but I don't consider them characters in their own rights. I don't feel either team subsumes the individual heroes to the extent where the team is the character. I'd be interested in hearing an argument that they do though...
With the Atom and Adam Strange I think you're looking at characters that used to be "B List" but no longer are. It did feel kind of wrong not including Zatanna in the "B List" but she hasn't had a long enough series to meet my criteria. (Just like it felt wrong to include Booster Gold in the "B List" but relegate Ted Kord to the "C List".) I gave some thought as to whether Black Canary should be listed higher but ultimately I decided Birds of Prey is more Oracle's book, is that off base?
I agree, Hitman, Shade, Animal Man, Manhunter, and Arion feel like they're listed above their station but I assumed that was just my personal bias getting in the way, as each one had a series with a pretty long run and they keep popping back up. As to Lobo, I personally can't stand the character, (except his early JLI appearances), but he is quite well known and seems to keep turning up like a bad penny.
I do stand behind my contention that derivative characters or ones who are primarily supporting characters don't belong on the "B List" as I don't think they can stand on their own. They're riding other character's capes so to speak. Oracle may be an exception as I think she's moved beyond needing to be affiliated with Batman. I think if DC had done a hard reboot, they could have set her up as her own character, without any Batman ties, and she still would work.
Hey Figs, despite the numbers, it wasn't really my intention to rank within the individual strata... I suppose I should have thought of that. ;) I didn't include Sandman or Death because I don't really think of them as DC but I guess the series did start out at DC before moving to Vertigo so they should be there.
If Marvel are going to say that only Superman and Batman are A-list characters, then I'd have to add that Spider-man, the Hulk, the Fantastic Four and Captain America barely scrape into A-list category, if they are in the same category as the World's Finest superheroes at all, which I dont't think they are.
Maybe in the last ten years they are getting there, almost. For one thing, Superman and Batman would have a much higher rate of recognition amongst the 2-year olds of the world. That's some feat, when you think about it!
Swamp Thing in his first run was high on quality (at least #1-12) but still short-lived up to #23. In the 80s with his movies, TV series ("Do not bring your evil here!"), cartoon show and action figure line, he definitely was an A-Lister. Oh, and Alan Moore might have helped a bit, too. But now, he's a B minus Lister at best though that could change.
The Super-Team concept is important and able to stand on its own despite of and because of various roster changes. I'll submit the the Fox/Sekowsky JLA and the Morrison JLA rank higher than JLA Detroit and Pre-Morrison JLA with Nuklon and other C-Listers, except for Metamorpho, of course!
But the Justice Society (the First Hero-Team/the Examples), the Justice League (the Primary Hero-Team/the Standard-Bearers) and the Teen Titans (the Hero Team: The Next Generation) are "characters" in and of themselves as the concept is stronger than most of their individual members.
The Legion actually encompasses all three traits as they are pretty stratified themselves which isn't too surprising given the amount of members that they have and the various incarnations that they have gone through.
Batgirl has been represented in TV, cartoons, movies, dolls and action figures. Even though there has been five different Batgirls, which proves the importance of the character btw, Barbara Gordon still is the Batgirl despite not being her for almost twenty-five years, though that's about to change, too!
I agree about Wonder Woman. The 70s TV show was great but it had two very different looks on two seperate channels. Various failed movie and TV attempts show a lack of a quality commitment. If they could greenlight Jonah Hex and The Losers, they could have done Wonder Woman: The Movie if they really wanted!
I think comics and media producers instinctively know what appeals to (young) male audiences. There are unwritten rules about what the likes of Superman, Batman, Iron Man and Spider-man can and can't do and still be viable and popular.
Sadly, they haven't a clue how to make a strong female lead work in a popular story. The male heroes have years of westerns and TV detective stories etc to fall back on for the rules of how to put together male-oriented entertainment about male heroes. Not to mention all of the western canon going back to Homer.
They don't have such a rulebook (unwritten as it is) for a female heroine. Wonder Woman is already in the A-list and a female empowerment icon, but they don't know how to parlez that into hugely popular films, TV series and even comic series. (Yes, Wonder Woman has had well-handled runs in her ongoing series, but Superman and Batman have had so much more, on top of their ongoings.)
"Sadly, they haven't a clue how to make a strong female lead work in a popular story."
They could study Joss Whedon's handling of female characters in his TV shows (just as Whedon studied Chris Claremont's handling of female characters in "X-Men"). There are heroines in pop culture -- but mainly not in comics -- going back to Honey West and Emma Peel in the '60s that could be studied. Not COPIED, but studied.
Spot on, George.
Perhaps Whedon could direct a Wonder Woman fi.... Oh that's right.
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