Gerry Conway wrote JLA 151-255, and we have been discussing issues he wrote that guest starred the JSA in another thread. We keep going off topic - okay, mainly I do - into other issues of Conway's run, not featuring the JSA at all.
So I figured the best thing to do was to give the Conway run its own thread.
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I think it was a deliberate effort, at least due in part to the fact that in the early to mid 1980s, JLA was being outsold by New Teen Titans, Legion of Super-Heroes, and Uncanny X-Men. These books had several teenage heroes in their casts. and the JLA only had Firestorm. The much derided Detroit era featured a much younger team (although Firestorm left when the League was dissolved, prior to the League being reborn and relocating to Detroit).
Border Mutt said:
Conway's run on the book started with #151(Feb 78) and continued on until #255 (Oct 86) (J.M. DeMatteis wrote the last 6 issues before volume 1 was cancelled, and then relaunched a few months later as JLI). He had also written a handful of issues a few years before this run.
I don't know who you're referring to when you say "very young, fresh fan-writers", unless you're talking about Len Wein, Marty Pasko, Cary Bates, etc. If so, I would disagree with your assessment of these creators somewhat. After Gardner Fox's last issue (#65, Sept 68) and Conway's first issue in 1978, several different writers were used - a lot of young turks to be sure, and the book saw some ups and downs, but they were all proven commodities with lots of writing credits behind them.
Speaking of proven commodities, Conway himself fit that bill. After all, he was the writer who had followed Stan Lee on Amazing Spider-Man, and was the writer of several other Marvel books. He had a brief stint (three weeks!)as Marvel's editor-in-chief in 1977, only a few months before he takes over on JLA. The books he wrote sold well, and when he went to DC in 1978, from what I've read in Back Issue and other places, he was considered a "hot" writer.
All that said, I think the book floundered creatively after issue 200. I have personally never been a fan of his writing, but I will say I was impressed with the issues he did with George Perez that I have read. That's the thing, imo, that Perez brings to the table - he truly collaborated, he co-plots, gives his input, and is a master storyteller with his pencils. He makes his writers better, almost as if he is challenging them to up their game. I saw it here with Conway, with Marv Wolfman on New Teen Titans, and with Kurt Busiek on Avengers. JLA and NTT took a huge dropoff in quality after Perez left, imo. The decline wasn't as bad with Avengers, but it was noticably not the same book without Perez.
I don't know if Conway went into a funk after Perez left and he had Don Heck, Rich Buckler, Chuck Patton et al for artists. I've heard people say that after JLA 200, it was a huge disappointment to see a Perez cover with Heck or someone doing art inside. The Detroit era is a punching bag for fans for a reason - it's pretty terrible. It's just my theory, but I think Conway was forced to reboot the team with some youth due to the sales numbers. I hesitate to say he was phoning it in at this point, but it was not a great time for the book.
To me, the stories you want to tell will beat the stories you're forced to tell every time.
Figserello said:
I'm a little suprised that no one has chimed in yet - Conway's run spanned several years, over 100 issues. The JLA/JSA crossover threads certainly inspire a lot of discussion. So come on folks! Say something!
Some of my thoughts, randomly:
- I haven't read most of Conway's run up to issue 200 outside of the annual stories guest starring the JSA. I think he benefits from an artist who is co-plotting with him (ie George Perez) and a strong editor (Schwartz and Len Wein) at the helm, which, imo, he didn't have during the Detroit era
- I think the late Dick Dillin is vastly underrated as an artist, considering his longevity on the book. I think if he had the chance to co-plot (I assume he didn't because this wasn't Marvel), it would have made the book even better.
- The Detroit era wasn't bad just because Vibe was an offensively stereotypical Latino and his costume was ridiculous (although granted that didn't help), it was awful for so many other reasons - Vixen and Ralph (and Sue) were the only likeable characters being one of the main problems.
Sorry, I didn't see this right away. I'm not sure if I can start going through all of Conway's run immediately but as for your last point, Justice League of America Annual #2 was cover-dated October 1984 (30th anniversary celebration, anyone!) and at the same time at DC, there was
Justice League of America had a lot of competition for readers' attention from DC alone. Its original purpose, to unite DC's greatest heroes in one title, was no longer feasible. Gerry Conway wanted to write a book with characters he alone had final say in and no one else was using Aquaman, Martian Manhunter, Elongated Man and Zatanna at the time. Plus he used the winning formula that both New Teen Titans and Batman & the Outsiders employed: the combination of established heroes and new characters but he wasn't as successful as his new heroes invoked little interest.
Another point is that during this time period, "team" characters weren't spun off into their own titles. There was no Tigorr #1 or Starfire, Silver Scarab or Ultra Boy solo series to dilute the main book. The focus was on the team.
John Dunbar:
"come on folks! Say something!"
MY introduction to JUSTICE LEAGUE OF AMERICA was one of the early Gardner Fox-Mike Sekowsky-Bernard Sachs issues: "The 'I' who Defeated The Justice League". It's very odd, but when, decades later, I was buyijng the JLA ARCHIVES, that story stood out for me as one of the better ones. Nostalgia, or had I just lujcked into oe of the better ones?
I read a few stories over the years, mostly as reprints, but they seemed so aimed at kids as I was becoming a teenager, that I never really had much of an urge to pick it up.
Then Gerry Conway caused Steve Englehart to flip out and QUIT Marvel Comics because of his incessant interference (and obvious desire to take over THE AVENGERS). I'd already seen Englehart doing a JLA tribute with George Perez ("Crisis On Other-Earth" / "Twenty Thousand Leagues Under Justice"). When I heard Englehart was going to do JLA for a year... I bit the bullet. By some weird kind of luck, I missed Englehjart's 1st 2 issues of DETECTIVE (had to get them as back-issues a couple months later), and, his 1st issue of MISTER MIRACLE (ditto). but I picked up his 1st issue of JLA right when it came out. It was the era when it was double-size, and that issue had 2 stories, by 2 different writers. The 1st seemed so "DC". The 2nd... DIDN'T. Englehart had become my FAVORITE writer at Marvel for severla years by then, and he may have been the only writer who could have inspired me to check out DC at the time. And the story he started out with was somehow a perfect mesh of "DC" and "Marvel" sensibilities. DAMN-- Englehart was good!
And the next issue he launched into a 2-part epic (which, because the books were double-length, was the equivalent of a 4-parter), which expaned to an almost insane degree the new "Manhunter" concept Jack Kirby had done some months earlier (though I had no idea of that until decades later). the story actually was later adapted as an episode of the WB JUSTICE LEAGUE cartoon. DAMN-- Englehart was good!
So when Englehart left, Conway took over. I read one issue. Compared to Englehart... it SUCKED. I didn't buy the book for at least another year-and-a-half.
As an aside, I recall the whole time I was buying Englehart's JLA that the art was by Dick Dillin. The interiors were inked by Frank McLaughlin, whose inks were so heavy-handed they seemed to completely smother the art. By comparison, Jack Abel inked most of the covers, and I liked the look much better. I always wished they'd have gotten Jack Abel (or someone like him) to ink the interiors. I guess that similar to how fans in the late 50's kept writing in asking for Murphy Anderson to ink Mike Sekowsky-- as he had on the covers-- instead of Bernard Sachs, who was doing the interiors.
When Gerry Conway took over THE AVENGERS from Steve Englehart, the quality of the writing PLUMETTED. I am convinced that people thought Jim Shooter was better than he was when HE took over, not because he was so good, but simply because he was a major step up FROM Conway.
So, seeing Conway replace Englehart on two different "flagship" team books, a year apart, was probably too much for me to tolerate.
He did get better, though... at least, for awhile.
On the OTHER hand, Gerry Conway only wrote The Avengers #152-155, plus Giant-Size Avengers # 6 with #151 having three writers credited. That's hardly taking over a book. I read about the politics involved plus that Steve Englehart was having problems getting scripts in on time resulting in the fill-ins of #145-146 and the partial reprint of #150, so I doubt that Steve was forced out because of some nefarious plot. I read his side of the story and Conway's side. IMHO, Conway didn't like Englehart personally but could only replace him when he didn't/couldn't/wouldn't produce on time. Either way, Conway left Marvel just as disillusioned as Englehart did.
That being said, I LIKED Conway's brief Avengers run. Was he as deep as Englehart? No but he told a rivetting story and spotlighted the Vision and the Scarlet Witch and made Cap and Iron Man relevant to the team again. Englehart was clearly fixated on, first, Mantis then the Beast and Hellcat. He brought division into the team at the expense of forced characterization, just as he did with his Justice League stint, making Wonder Woman very unappealling, implanting Mantis as Willow (which I thought then and still do now as neat but somewhat vain), brought back the Red Tornado just as he planned to bring back Wonder Man, shoved Mark Shaw/Manhunter/Privateer down thr readers' throats then took him away when he left and created the most annoying JLA villain ever in the Construct, who kept returning quickly after each defeat just like he handled Kang the Conqueror. Plus the Construct was after Willow, too!
Again that being said, I enjoyed Steve Englehart's stay on Justice League and loved his Avengers but I loved Gerry Conway's Justice League too. His debut, #151, was a very good comic starting with the Atom's bachelor party! (Drunk super-heroes, bad jokes, tiny strippers, the works! ;-P) He had the female members not to happy about being excluded and the married members telling the Atom how great marriage is. He reintroduced us to a classic JLA villain and actually created a new team of villains, mimicking a particular JLAer but with a neat twist. And he gave us Green Arrow with a hangover. So I thought his early efforts were fine and I think very under-rated!
IMHO, of course!
"That's hardly taking over a book."
Of course it is. The only reason it doesn't seem like it is because Conway left Marvel so quickly. He also "took over" GHOST RIDER, DAREDEVIL, THE DEFENDERS, CAPTAIN MARVEL, SUPER-VILLAIN TEAM-UP, all at the expense of the creative teams he kicked off the books in the process.
"I read about the politics involved plus that Steve Englehart was having problems getting scripts in on time resulting in the fill-ins of #145-146 and the partial reprint of #150"
George Perez was the problem. He regularly got on 4 series at once and blew deadlines on all of them. He told me this himself just as he & Marv Wolfman were starting up THE NEW TEEN TITANS.
I wouldn't trust anything Gerry Conway says. Back in 1973, he vehemently denied any responsibility in the death of Gwen Stacy. Decades later, he started trying to take full credit for it.
You didn't find Gypsy likeable? I certainly did. Then again I didn't hate the Detroit era. I wouldn't say I loved it, but there were some good stories there, and how it ended for Steel actually saddened me.
I thought as long as Chuck Patton ("George Perez LITE") was on the book, it was fun.
When Luke McDonnell took over... OHHHHHHH., GOD HELP US!!!!!
You know what I really couldn't believe? That later on, they took a 3rd-rate Gerry Conway villain, "The Overlord", who was so badly written there was no hint that he could possibly have been a "major major threat", and turned him into a "WORLD-THREATENING" menace, in a crossover story that, just to prove they were serious, they used to kill off Ice. Mind-boggling.
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