Legends of the Dark Knight: Marshall Rogers

Figserello November 17, 2011 at 6:41pm

I've recently reread the first Silver St Cloud multi-parter in my copy of 'Strange Apparitions', inspired by Colin Smith's fine appreciation of it.

This was the first time I really 'got' it, and understood why its so highly regarded.

It's kind of understated, compared to the in-your-face Batman stories I got used to reading in the 80s. When I read it before, it seemed kind of 'old-fashioned'. The callowness of youth! It's a fine story though, and I see now, ahead of its time. I also totally see what Englehart means when he says that so much of the content of the movies were based on it. Not surprising as he set himself the task of telling a novel-like story, with a beginning, middle and end, that didn't get bogged down in the origin and explored what it would be like to be the Batman, and the personal costs involved etc.

I'll have to try to read the later Englehart/Rogers Batman stories. I'll keep an eye on the back-issue bins. As with many of the books that you review/'react to' :-), Jeff, this collection looks a bit out of my budget. How many pages is this?

Now, with those out of the way, I’m prepared to read the three Silver St. Cloud stories back-to-back. IIRC, whereas both “Siege” and “Dark Detective” are sequels to Englehart and Rogers’ Detective Comics run, they are mutually exclusive. We’ll see.

I'm a little disappointed to hear this. I'd have rathered a true trilogy.

doc photo November 18, 2011 at 7:55am

Although I read a couple of Rogers' illustrated Bat stories in the Seventies, it was the Strange Apparitions collection that really opened my eyes to his take on the character. Rogers is in my top five list of all time great Batman artists.

Henry R. Kujawa November 18, 2011 at 4:25pm

There's been many different views over the years about whether LEGENDS OF THE DARK KNIGHT were "in continuity" or not. Some of them weren't, but I'd like to think most of them were, within the Post-Crisis "New DCU". If anything, it drove me nuts that so many of them were clearly told out of sequence. (Like, the 2ND Poison Ivy story was told long before we got to see her "1st" story. And, they held back The Joker's debut until LOTDK #50.) I got the impression that Archie Goodwin's "Silver" story was somehow a sequel, but taking place in a different continuity. By comparison, although it seemed an obvious thing to do, apparently, the LOTDK appearances of Hugo Strange had no connection with Steve Englehart's story (or the multitude of later issues that were sequels to it).

I remember observing with some confusion and amusement when DARK DETECTIVE came out, that so many DC fans seemed totally oblivious as to how it fit into continuity, since so much of it was totally against the grain of the "current" Batman. They missed the freaking obvious-- that Steve was telling a brand-new EARTH-1 storyline!!! Nobody else at DC was. Not even the current LEGION is 100% accurate to the Pre-Crisis / Earth-1 continuity (apparently). With countless "Elseworlds" to play with, you'd think SOMEBODY would actually do stories set on that ONE particular Earth, which, since 1986, seems perversely "off-limits".

According to Englehart, DC has not only expressed NO interest in the 2nd half of DARK DETECTIVE, they're determined that it "never" be published! With Marshall Rogers having passed away (still a shock to me, he wasn't that old), Paul Gulacy stepped forward and offered to illustrate the remaining 6 issues... and DC adamantly turned him down!!!

The sooner Dan Didio is history, the better...

Jeff of Earth-J November 18, 2011 at 5:02pm

This collection is 496 slick, glossy pages, including cover gallery. Unfortunately, the covers to the Shadow of the Batman mini-series and Strange Apparitions tpb are not included. And, yes, the Englehart/Rogers run of Detective Comics (whatever you care to call it) would make a great screenplay… for an animated feature if not for a live-action film.

I bought LotDK from the beginning for several years, then stopped. A few years later I started up again and couldn’t stop because the stories were so good: “Siege” for one, but also Catwoman and Hugo Strange, the Joker and Ra’s Al Ghul, and the first meeting of Batman and Green Arrow. It blows my mind that DC would turn away an Englehart/Gulacy sequel to Dark Detective.

It’s difficult to believe that Englehart and Rogers were together for only six issues initially. I guess that’s because Englehart preceded Rogers by two and Rogers outlasted Englehart by two. Still, it’s pretty impressive what all they managed to cram in: Rupert Thorne, Silver St. Cloud, Hugo Strange, Robin, the Penguin, Deadshot, and the Joker, all weaving in and out of the plot with motive and purpose. “The Laughing Fish” alone was one of the best (i.e., craziest) Joker stories ever plotted.

The arc itself really began two issues before Rogers’ arrival, as I mentioned, but those stories are summarized in #471 and the collection doesn’t really suffer for their non-inclusion. Rupert Thorne is introduced in #469-470 as is silver St. Cloud (one page plus four panels), but regarding the inking, let’s just say that Al Milgrom is not suited to ink Walt Simonson and leave it at that. The Englehart/Rogers tenure begins in medias res and works well that way. The two post-Englehart issues feature Clayface. Len Wein does a good job tying up loose ends, but #478-479 are definitely a new story rather than a continuation.

Englehart himself must have been a big fan of Bob Kane and Bill Finger, bringing back obscure one- and two-shot villains from the early years (Hugo Strange, from Batman #1and Detective Comics # 46; Deadshot from Batman #59), as well as the giant props of the Weisinger era. It’s easy to see why this run is so highly regarded, even after all these years.

Jeff of Earth-J November 19, 2011 at 2:00pm

Figserello said:

As with many of the books that you review/'react to' :-), Jeff…

I always like to state up front what I expect (and what you can expect) from a topic I start. Although I’m always pleased when something I post generates discussion, oftentimes I’m content to simply get something of my chest. OTOH, if I genuinely want to discuss something, I’ll let you know. (https://captaincomics.ning.com/forum/topics/jack-kirby-s-kamandi-the...)
Generally, if I’m going to do a full-blown “review” I’d read the entire work in a single sitting and take notes. But I’m on vacation and it’s catch as catch can. For example, this morning I read the first two issues of “Siege” then went out and did other things. My intention had been to write about those first two issues now, but I don’t really feel like it so I’m not gonna. Nyah! I will say I was mistaken yesterday when I stated that Hugo Strange had only two previous appearances; it was three. I also forgot to mention that Hugo Strange’s disguise bore a striking resemblance to a certain other “Dr. Strange.”

Figserello said:

I've recently reread the first Silver St Cloud multi-parter in my copy of 'Strange Apparitions', inspired by Colin Smith's fine appreciation of it.

Now that’s quite an “appreciation.” :-)

Henry R. Kujawa November 19, 2011 at 3:22pm

Jeff of Earth-J wrote:

"the covers to the Shadow of the Batman mini-series and Strange Apparitions tpb are not included"

Well, that's just silly.

"It blows my mind that DC would turn away an Englehart/Gulacy sequel to Dark Detective."

The also dragged their feet so that nothing came of Arnold Drake's last DOOM PATROL and DEADMAN stories. I could tell he was very excited about those, but I guess nobody in charge really cared to have them see the light of day.

But then, I still remember when Paul Gulacy was doing CATWOMAN. The whole time he was on the book, they kept getting HATE letters from "fans"-- and although sales went UP while he was on it, he got fired, in the middle of a 3-part story! (The last 2 parts of that story were illustrated by a Gulacy-imitator-- it was like "Jim Craig" all over again!)

"It’s difficult to believe that Englehart and Rogers were together for only six issues initially. I guess that’s because Englehart preceded Rogers by two and Rogers outlasted Englehart by two."

Steve had a clear plan in mind, to work for DC for a short period, then, QUIT comics altogether to become a full-time novelist. He described his frustration in an early-80's interview when publishers refused to believe that someone who'd spent years writing for comics was a "real writer" (presumably, without even having read his book).

Englehart was the guy who got me reading new DCs for the first time in around 8-9 years. Somehow, I missed his 1st issue of MISTER MIRACLE (got it after I got the 2nd one), and, his first 2 issues of DETECTIVE (got those later, too). JLA was the only one I somehow managed to get right from the start. (There were 2 stories in that issue, and the contrast in writing style was quite striking, as Steve took over halfway thru the issue.)

I was very disappointed with the 2 Simonson issues, as well as a few earlier issues I managed to pick up some time later (including one pencilled by Rogers!). Englehart's writing was just SO MUCH BETTER than anyone else at DC at the time, it was almost shocking.

"Rupert Thorne, Silver St. Cloud, Hugo Strange, Robin, the Penguin, Deadshot, and the Joker"

Steve knew he had a short time, so his plan was to pull out all the stops. It's amazing how much he did with Rupert Thorne in such a short time, considering how MANY issues he appeared in later on, where next-to-nothing ever seemed to happen in any given issue. I suspect Silver stood out not so much because of her looks or personality, but for the simple fact that by the mid-70's, Bruce Wayne had not really had a steady girlfriend since maybe the 1940's. (Watching the 1943 BATMAN serial is a reminded of how he was before the series got so "kiddie-fied" due to editorial narrow-mindedness.)

I wasn't even aware of Hugo Strange before I read Steve's 2-parter. It strikes me when I think about it, the way so many Hollywood superhero films involve someone learning the hero's secret identity. And here Steve did it with Hugo Strange in his first (new) appearance! I was somewhat frustrated by the way the Hugo Strange sub-plot was left hanging at the end. It took years before other writers finally picked up on it, by which time it seemed very unrealistic that he should have waited to long without coming back. (Never mind that so much time had gone by before Englehart brought him back in the first place.) When Doug Moench & Paul Gulacy told the "first" Hugo Strange story in "PREY", I kept wondering if the Englehart-Rogers story was still in continuity in the Post-Crisis New DCU. (I'm pretty sure it wasn't.)

Steve's Penguin story reminded me a lot of one of Burgess Meredith's excessively-confuising plots from the TV show.

As for The Joker, my favorite story of his for years had been his debut story, which I read in Jules Feiffer's book. Leave it to Steve to do a genuine sequel to that, with The Joker using the same shtick which he hadn't used in comics in decades. Of course, Steve had The Red Skull using the SAME shtick in his then-recent CAP storylne ("dust of death", which kills while turning a person's head into a blood-red skull). I didn't realize for many years that THAT also dated back to the early 40's.

Isn't it bizarre, in light of the Earth-2 / Earth-1 separation of continuities, that Steve should do so much DIRECTLY connected to the early-40's? By comparison, when Gerry Conway did a "Dr. Death" story, it was his "first" appearance in the Earth-1 continuity.

I thought it was hilarious how Deadshot broke jail by stealing a gimmick off the Penguin, who had foolishly (and arrogantly) shown it off as how HE was planning to escape.

I thought it was a little bizarre that when the WB cartoon show adapted "The Laughing Fish", they combined it with the plot of Denny O'Neil's 1st Joker story. (Neither writer was credited in the cartoon, a real crime in my eyes.)

"Good lord!"

"WHERE??? Oh-- I see. It was an EXPRESSION."

Wandering Sensei: Moderator Man November 20, 2011 at 8:41am

I'm a sucker for any Batman book featuring an artist spotlight. I bought the more recent work of Tim Sale and Darwyn Cooke in the Tales of the Batman volumes. I also bought the volume that just came out of the late great Gene Colan. I haven't read the latter yet, but I think that by the time I've finished reading it, I'll be hungry for more classic Batman from the 70's and 80's. I do already have the Strange Apparitions book from several years back, so I may just read that one if I'm not looking to add more weight to my bookshelf.

Jeff of Earth-J November 20, 2011 at 8:52am

“Siege” is a complex story. This is perhaps my third time through it, but I had forgotten most of the details. The story is by Archie Goodwin and the art by Marshall Rogers, yes, but parts two through five give script credit to James Robinson. (Actually, I can hear Robinson’s work in part one, as well, most especially in the dialogue between the two movie buff mercenaries.) Truth be told, “Siege” is a near-perfect collaboration of ploter, scripter, penciller, inker (Bob Wiacek), colorist (Willie Schubert). Kudos to editor Andrew Helfer for bringing them all together. For completeness’ sake, let us not forget to mention assistant editor Harvey Richards.

The central character is Colonel Brass, a mercenary with ties to three generations of the Wayne family: Bruce, his father Thomas and Bruce’s grandfather Jack. In the present day, Brass leads a small mercenary band composed of “Cowboy” and his sidekick, a martial artist named “Priest” and a female pilot named Nightbird, but in the past he was Jack Wayne’s right-hand man.

Jack Wayne was a hard man, but fair, although he sometimes turned a blind eye to Brass’ means. Brass was present for the construction of Wayne Manor, and when he delivered “dirty money” in the form of gold bars to Jack, Wayne dunped them into the partially-completed fireplace in his office to be buried bneath the foundation for all time. Jack’s young son Thomas was rather bookish in his youth, but throughout the years, told in a series of flashbacks, we see him grow into the man his son Bruce remembers him to be.

This is a character-driven story, but equally important is the setting, both Wayne Manor as well as the penthouse atop the Wayne Foundation. Batman has recently moved his base of operations to the heart of Gotham City, and Alfred is not happy about it. Brass is dealing arms to both sides of a gang war. He’s told his team that he’s in town to get the gold, but his real motive is to destroy Wayne Manor. His ostensible reason for being in Gotham City is to hold a convention for mercenary soldiers, which is where organizer Silver St. Could comes in.

Silver has been living in Metropolis since she split with Bruce Wayne, but allows herself to be enticed back to Gotham to organize Brass’ shindig. She doesn’t play a huge role in the story, and meets Bruce Wayne face-to-face for only one three-page sequence, but her presence is yet another distracting factor in Batman’s mind throughout.

By the end of the story, we not only find out what really happened to the gold, but also Bruce Wayne makes his final choice between the mansion and the penthouse. I remembered this as a good story, but it is truly expert. Next up for me is Dark Detective and I am really looking forward to re-reading it!

Jeff of Earth-J November 20, 2011 at 9:22am

The other story pencilled by Marshall Rogers you mentioned, Henry, was probably “Battle of the Thinking Machines” from Detective Comics #468. (That’s the one written by Bob Rozakis and is included in the collection as well.) It’s the culmination of a four-parter in which Black Canary, Elongated Man and Green are meet and are defeated in turn by the Calculator. In the final chapter, those three (plus Hawkman and the Atom) team-up to bring him down. The art is nice, of course, but other than some nice interplay between Morgan Edge and Bruce Wayne (and the Batman bursting into laughter at the end), the story itself is forgettable.

Speaking of Bruce Wayne’s girlfriends, a footnote in Detective Comics #474 mentions the fate of Julie Madison is revealed in World’s Finest #248. Anyone here have the lowdown on that? If so, spoil away!

In my last post, I described “Siege” as a “complex story.” I like complex stories, but not all writers are able to handle them well. In lesser hands, the plot becomes over-burdened with details and some aspects are left woefully underdeveloped. Let me assure you that that is not the case here. Englehart and Goodwin (not to mention Rogers) are masters of their craft. Both extended stories are representative of their respective eras. In other words, “Strange Apparitions” is much more serial in nature, but the structure of “Siege” is a little more complex. All parts of “Siege” are required to enjoy the whole, but the chapters of “Strange Apparitions” (even the two-parts) can be read and enjoyed separately.

I was thinking yesterday that I approve of the way the Hugo Strange subplot was handled. It’s left up to the reader to determine whether or not the supernatural is involved. When I’ve finished the Marshall Rogers tome, and with “Strange Apparitions” still fresh in my mind, I’ve decided to go on to the character’s initial appearances and “Prey.” I would say “Strange Apparitions” has been replaced by “Prey” in post-Crisis continuity, but it still “happened” on Earth-1 (and Earth-J) as far as I am concerned.

And Jeff… be sure to post a review of (or reaction to) that Colan collection when you get around to reading it. I didn’t buy it, myself, but a good discussion of its contents just might change my mind!

Henry R. Kujawa November 20, 2011 at 10:07am

I recall not really enjoying "Siege" when it came out. Now that I've been reminded of the plot in detail, my feeling remains. Oh well, call it persona taste. (Part of it may be one writer finishing another writer's project, but, maybe not.)

"it still “happened” on Earth-1 (and Earth-J) as far as I am concerned."

It almost seems insane, looking back, that after so many years of writers being able to write about Earth-1, Earth-2, and any other Earth they wanted, that after 1986, editorial edict insisted that NO new stories be told on any Earth other than the Post-Crisis New DCU (UNLESS of course it was one of countless "Elseworlds", which all tended to be stand-alone one-shots).

What continues to amaze me in DARK DETECTIVE was how Englehart made at least one more reference to something that happened back in the 1940's. By 1970's standards that probably started to see odd; 25 or more years later, it's probably no wonder some younger fans were either confused or outright irate. It just showed Englehart's almost unique vision of "his" Batman.

3 of my favorite Post-Crisis BATMAN stories were all in LOTDK, and all featured Catwoman: "Prey", "Claws" and "Terror". The 1st & 3rd of these were by Doug Moench & Paul Gulacy, and featured Hugo Strange; the 2nd one was Moench & Russ Heath, and featured a brand-new, evil, insane version of "Catman". (I think "Claws" took place after "Terror", even though it came out some time earlier.)

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Legends of the Dark Knight: Marshall Rogers

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