My point, and I do have one (with apologies to Ellen Degeneres) .....
Thanks to everyone who responded to my two threads about Marvel and DC heroes created in the 60s and 70s. For those of you who didn't read them, I was asking everyone to name super-heroes created in those two decades who didn't have a regular home, either having their own title, or headlining their own strip as a backup feature or part of an anthology title, or they were a regular member of a super-team. That was too narrow a criteria; it ended up ruling out a lot of characters, and you guys named several that had made one single appearance. Several interesting posts about heroes I had not heard of before, but in hindsight - and this is solely my fault - not really what I was looking for.
Perhaps what I should have done was ask for you guys to just name heroes created in these decades who weren't headliners. I picked the 60s and 70s for a few reasons - the Silver Age starts just a few years before the 60s, and there was an explosion of characters, both new and re-imagined. Some get their own title, others star in or are part of an anthology title, some are members of a super-team and don't regularly appear elsewhere, and a few are stuck at guest star status until they find a home. DC had 2 titles - Showcase, and Brave & Bold - that functioned as try-outs for regular series, and it worked out very well for them in many cases. Marvel, I think, tried to ape this approach with Marvel Super-Heroes #12-20 (Dec 67- May 69), but it was much less successful. Brave & Bold evolved from a try-out book to a team-up book, and was the only one in the 60s with rotating guest stars.
In 1968, both companies saw an expansion of titles (there were a lot of issue number ones that year), followed by a bit of a crash in 1969. Also, in the late 60s, a number of DC writers who had guided top titles for many years were shunted aside (and that's a whole another discussion right there) replaced by the "young turks". As Marvel grew, Stan Lee has to add more scripters and artists.
Jack Kirby leaves Marvel for DC in 1970. Stan Lee stops scripting not long after.
All of this leads to the 70s, where there is a another explosion of creations. The creative newcomers bombard readers with new characters. Kirby famously stopped giving Marvel new characters in the mid 60s and when he came to DC added a whole new pantheon, the Fourth World, as well as Kamandi and the Demon. By the end of the 70s, Marvel and DC each have two team-up titles. There are many try-out and anthology books. Even the number of super-teams have grown, perhaps in part to accomodate all of the heroes floating around out there. In 1965's FF Annual 3, Reed and Sue got married and every Marvel super-hero showed up. If the wedding had taken place in 1979, they probably would have had to hold the ceremony in Madison Square Garden if everyone was invited!
This has already been a long post. You're no doubt wondering "Well, what the heck is Dunbar's point anyway?" When I know I'm being long-winded, I try to break my posts up, so that's what I'll do here.
So, to be continued ......
Replies
Another reason I picked the 60s and 70s as my timeline to examine here was that I started reading comics on a regular basis in 1979. The comics I didn't get to experience first-hand have always fascinated me; I've always been big on reprint titles, Showcases, Essentials. Heck, I even got entertainment value out of Official Handbooks of the Marvel Universe and Who's Who!
And of course I get to participate here at the Cave with many folks who were there first-hand. and I love reading what you guys have to say about it.
The question I want to pose to you is this: do you think when all of these characters were created that the intention of the creators was to one day have them headline a series?
I think they often did have that intention, but not always. One of the best examples of that is Steve Englehart with Mantis. She's a deeply personal character for him; he told her story in Avengers - she debuted there and her story concluded there. She didn't guest star in Team-Up or Two-In-One, and I would wager that was deliberate. Could she have starred in her own series and be successful? Possibly I think Englehart could have made it work, but maybe not.
Other examples could be the original individual members of the Fantastic Four and the X-Men. Here we have two examples where the team debuts together without appearing anywhere else first. Did Stan and Jack think that possibly once all the members were established they would someday get their own series? I know that the Human Torch became the star of Strange Tales about a year after FF #1, but I attribute that to the original Golden Age HT being a popular character, which Stan and Jack knew first hand. Also, the Thing was the lead of Marvel Two-In-One, starting in 1974. The Beast was even briefly the star of Amazing Adventures in the early 70s. The common thread was that for these three series, Stan and Jack had minimal, if any, involvement - I think Stan plotted a few HT stories in ST, and Jack may have drawn a few.
So, back to the question, when whoever it was created Stingray in Sub-Mariner #19, what did they want to do with him next? I don't think he became an Avenger for about 20 years, and even then was barely used. Does anyone think the likes of Doc Samson, the Guardsman (from Iron Man), Will o' the Wisp, and Woodgod - to use some "out there" examples - not getting their own series or joining a super-team was a missed opportunity?
Thoughts?
Hmm.
I don't know chapter and verse, but I do know that early in the 1970's there was a large influx of new writers and artists both at Marvel and DC, most of whom came into the industry as fans of comics themselves, rather than having backgrounds in the pulps, being science fiction fans, etc. Additionally at Marvel as Stan stepped out of the Editor in Chief position there seemed to be a rotating roster of editor in chiefs. Additionally there was a lot of fad-chasing going on. I think the combination of those factors led to a lot of throwing stuff at the wall to see what sticks. My guess is that by flooding the market with new characters that both companies were more or less fishing blindly. With the exception of characters obviously created for comic relief (e.g. Captain Ultra, Leap Frog) I imagine that the idea was that if some character showed signs of popularity that he or she would be given some sort of headlining opportunity, either as a feature character or part of a team.
I wrote about Mister Fantastic and his lack of solo/guest spots and the same could go for the Invisible Girl/Woman, too.
The Angel had a brief back-up series in Ka-Zar #2-3 and Marvel Tales #30 where he fought his evil uncle: The Dazzler! No really!
I can't think that anyone would have been interested in a Cyclops or Iceman book but, as I mentioned before, when Ms. Marvel was announced in 1976, the rumor was that it would be a revamped Marvel Girl! And no one was particularly thrilled by that thought!
I still find it hard to believe that during the late 60s to late 70s that Hawkeye, the Vision, Yellowjacket or the Scarlet Witch never got that Marvel Super-Heroe/Premiere/Spotlight shot like the Black Knight, Medusa, Woodgod, Seeker 3000, et al got! The Avengers got little love back then! :-(
Philip Portelli said:
Randy, I agree with all your points. To hear Jim Shooter tell it, Marvel was pure chaos after Stan Lee stepped back, so much so, that when Shooter took over as E-I-C, a lot of the venom directed at him stemmed from him making rules and enforcing them. Shooter's detractors, of course, have a different version. Either way, a lot of the big stars at Marvel from 1972-1978 - mostly writers who had also been editors - landed at DC by the early 80s.
There was a lot of the "throw it at the wall and see what sticks" in that time for sure. A lot of off-beat and out there concepts, perhaps not a lot of commercial successes, but definitely a lot of creativity.
Philip, I've often wondered if Iceman's guest starring role in Amazing Spider-Man just after Capt. Stacy died (ASM 91 or 92, I think) was meant to be a try-out for his own solo series. I remember thinking it sure felt like that when I read it, and I believe that was just after the X-Men book went all reprint.
Hank Pym did have a brief starring stint in the early 70s, not as Yellowjacket, but as Ant-Man, in Marvel Feature 4-10 (July 72-July 73). MF 1-3 launched the Defenders series, and the last two issues, MF 11-12, launched Marvel Two-In-One, but sadly this Ant-Man series didn't lead to anything, nor do I believe was it reprinted everywhere. You're right about the other Avengers, though, although those 70s anthology books seemed to be a little unsure if they wanted to be a home for a regular series or a try-out books. Many of the one-offs, at least to me, seemed to be inventory stories, as in, "we paid for this, we may as well try to recoup some revenue for it." I honestly think this was the motivation for some of these stories seeing the light of day, especially in the late 70s. Some of those later issues of Marvel Premiere were flat out awful.
Marvel heroes who starred in a series in a book under a different name:
Amazing Adventures:
Inhumans (#1-10), Black Widow (#1-8), Beast (#11-17), Killraven (#18-39)
Astonishing Tales:
Ka-Zar (#1-20), Dr. Doom (#1-8), It the Living Colossus (#21-24), Deathlok (#25-28, 30-36)
Creatures on the Loose:
Man-Wolf (#30-37)
(Adventures into) Fear:
Man-Thing (#10-19), Morbius (#20-31)
Jungle Action:
Black Panther (#5-24)
Marvel Chillers:
Modred the Mystic (#1-2), Tigra (#3-7)
Marvel Feature (1971):
Defenders (#1-3), Ant-Man (#4-10), The Thing and ... (11-12)
Marvel Feature (1975):
Red Sonja (#1-7)
Marvel Premiere:
Warlock (#1-2), Dr. Strange (#3-14), Iron Fist (#15-25)
Marvel Presents:
Bloodstone (#1-2), Guardians of the Galaxy (#3-12)
Marvel Spotlight (1971):
Red Wolf (#1), Werewolf by Night (#2-4), Ghost Rider (#5-11), Son of Satan (#12-24)
Marvel Spotlight (1979):
Captain Marvel (#1-4, 8), Star-Lord (#6-7), Captain Universe (#9-11)
Super Villain Team-Up:
Dr. Doom & the Sub-Mariner (#1-14)
I left out all of the 1 and 2 issue try-outs that show up in Premiere, Spotlight, etc. I don't have the knowledge to attempt a similar DC list.
The try-outs (I won't give an opinion on what I consider to be honest attempts at try-outs and what I think are inventory stories):
Spider-Man (Amazing Fantasy 15), Scarecrow (Dead of Night 11), Hercules (Marvel Premiere 26), Satana (MP 27), Legion of Monsters (MP 28), Liberty Legion (MP 29-30), Woodgod (MP 31), Monark Starstalker (MP 32), Solomon Kane (MP 33-34), 3-D Man (MP 35-37), Weirdworld (MP 38), Torpedo (MP 39-40), Seeker 3000 (MP 41), Tigra (MP 42), Paladin (MP 43), Jack of Hearts (MP 44), Man-Wolf (MP 45-46), Ant-Man II (Scott Lang) (MP 47-48), Falcon (MP 49), Alice Cooper (MP 50) (Ok, this one was just about having fun), Black Panther (MP 51-53), Caleb Hammer (MP 54), Wonder Man (MP 55), Dominic Fortune (MP 56), Dr. Who (MP 57-60), Star-Lord (MP 61), Sinbad (Marvel Spotlight Vol 1 #25), Scarecrow (MS 26), Sub-Mariner (MS 27), Moon Knight (MS 28-29), Warriors Three (MS 30), Nick Fury (MS 31), Spider-Woman (MS 32), Deathlok (MS 33), Dragon-Lord (MS Vol 2 #5), Captain Marvel (Mar-Vell) (Marvel Super-Heroes 12-13), Medusa (MSH 15), Phantom Eagle (MSH 16), Black Knight (MSH 17), Guardians of the Galaxy (MSH 18), Ka-Zar (MSH 19), Dr. Doom (MSH 20)
Only guessing of course, but I would bet that the following were inventory stories, sitting in a desk for a while before being published: Hercules, Falcon, Caleb Hammer, Wonder Man, Sub-Mariner, Warriors Three, and Dragon Lord. There was a Spider-Man story in Marvel Super-Heroes 14 in 1967 that was written by Stan and pencilled by Ross Andru, several years before Andru was the regular penciller on ASM.
The Deathlok story in Marvel Spotlight 33 (Apr 77) was a continuation from Astonishing Tales 36 (July 76, and the last issue of that series) and continued into MTIO 27 (May 77).
Black Panther was cancelled with issue #15 in May 1979, and continues into Marvel Premiere 51 (Dec 79).
Captain Marvel was cancelled with issue #62 in May 1979, and continues into Marvel Spotlight Vol 2 #1 (July 79). CM had been a bi-monthly title since it was revived in 1972 with #22 (cancelled in 1969, briefly revived in 1970 for two issues, cancelled again). I think with Deathlok and Black Panther they had issues in the can when these titles got cancelled, and the gap is explainable - the stories sat on an editor's desk until there was room to put them somewhere. With CM, there's no gap between CM 62 and Marvel Spotlight 1, as in if there had been a CM 63 it would have had a July 79 cover date just like MS 1 did. My theory is that CM wasn't selling well (pretty obvious, as it was cancelled) and Marvel thought giving CM a new issue #1 - even under a different title - might give it enough of a boost to save the title. On the cover, "Marvel Spotlight (on)" is in much smaller type than "Captain Marvel", and there is a promo caption saying "All-New! 1st Collector's Item Issue!"; a bit of a bait and switch if you ask me, as this wasn't a true relaunch (same creative team, continuation from CM 62) and easily could have been CM 63-66 (I haven't read MS 1; I got this and most of my other info from comics.org).
Anyone know for sure or have a different theory?
I believe that the Falcon story was mentioned in The Avengers as to why he was absent when Arsenal attacked. Hawkeye wasn't impressed!
And the Warriors Three story had to correspond when they were actually in New York City in Thor.
As I said, only guesses, and ones I would be happy to be wrong about. When story sits on (or in) an editor's desk for a while, chances are it's not "A-plus" material.
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