After a recent discussion with Mr. Silver Age about the infamous Iron Man-Submariner cross over in about Tales of Suspense #82 and Tales to Astonish #84 or so, it brought up a question of what the earliest cross-over or guest-star roles between Marvel comics heroes might be.
Anyone care to contribute nominations to a list?
Replies
The Sub-Mariner and the Human Torch first crossed over, as opponents, in 1940 in Marvel Mystery Comics ##8-10. There were further Sub-Mariner/Human Torch battles in the Golden Age, and also team-ups. The "Young Allies" cast included Bucky and Toro; the feature debuted in Young Allies #1, 1941. Captain America, Namor, the Torch and the Whizzer and Miss America appeared as the All-Winners Squad in All-Winners Comics #19, #21 in 1946.
The first Marvel crossover after the appearance of Fantastic Four #1 might be "Millie Meets Kathy, the Teen-Age Tornado" in Life with Millie #14. In Fantastic Four #4 the Sub-Mariner was revived. Of course, he didn't have his own feature at that point. The Torch was shown reading a Hulk comic in Fantastic Four #5, but he wasn't treated there as "real". Spider-Man met the Fantastic Four in Amazing Spider-Man #1, and the Fantastic Four met the Hulk at the same time in Fantastic Four #12.
Patsy Walker and Linda Carter from Linda Carter, Student Nurse met each other in Patsy Walker #99, two months after Kathy's appearance in the Millie title.
Kid Colt and the Silver Age Rawhide Kid both predate Fantastic Four #1, but I don't think they met until Kid Colt Outlaw #121 in late 1964.
Figserello said:
Excellent work, Luke, but I was thinking a little later on...along the lines of super-hero cross-overs in the Silver Age.
Your information is no doubt accurate, but it's all a bit earlier and cameo related than I had been thinking of.
Other than the Hulk and Sub-mariner guest-staring as opponents for The Avengers, I was thinking more along the lines of the Avengers appearing in FF or X-men.
Anyone know the significance of the DD vs Subby story in Daredevil #7? There are several significant aspects to this story. How many can you list?
Luke Blanchard said:
It's the first issue with the red costume for one.
I was prepared to think it might have been the first Wally Wood issue but I was wrong. When checking that out I was surprised to see that Bill Everett only did the first issue. And I had completely forgotten about Joe Orlando!
Andy
Fantastic Four #12 was a true Fantastic Four/Hulk crossover. It also came out a month before the last issue of the Hulk's first title.
The next major crossover involving Marvel's superheroes might be Ant-Man's appearance in Fantastic Four #16. (The same month the Torch made cameo appearances in Amazing Spider-Man #3. The next issue of Fantastic Four had a cameo appearance by Ant-Man at the start.) A couple of months later the Torch and Spider-Man teamed up in Strange Tales Annual #2.
The month after that a back-up story retelling Spidey's first encounter with the FF appeared in Fantastic Four Annual #1, the FF put in cameo appearances in Amazing Spider-Man #5 (when Spidey met Dr. Doom; the issue also explained how Doom survived his fall in Fantastic Four #17), the young Reed Richards made a cameo appearance in Sgt. Fury #3, and Avengers #1 appeared. This takes us to July 1963.
I did a column on the Iron Man-Sub-Mariner crossover, in which I gave some definitions, since I was talking about firsts and such. To me, a "cross-over" means the story crosses over from one title into another. So if you have a subscription to one title, you don't get all the parts.
Guest-stars are when a hero shows up in someone else's comic, like DD appearing in a Spidey comic. If you read DD, you never know this took place. The Challs and the Doom Patrol had a cross-over on the DC side, and Marvel had all kinds of guest-stars to raise their characters' profiles.
I also noted there are times when a story splits off, such as once when The Wasp flew off from the Avengers on a side mission, and it continued into another title, but the Avengers just kept doing what they were doing. So Avengers readers didn't get to see the Wasp's adventure, but it didn't impact the Avengers storyline.
Stan and Roy liked to do that stuff to make their universe seem more integrated and get readers interested in picking up other titles. They could do that when they had so few titles and oversaw most of them themselves.
After the column appeared, I got an angry note from a fan who was outraged that I thought I could define what these terms meant when fandom didn't agree and who did I think I was, etc. I thought my definitions made sense (I still do), but I never fool myself into thinking any of my suggestions are embraced by fandom in general. Still, when we talk the "first" of something, I think we need to agree on what we're talking about, or it's hard to focus the conversation.
So I wouldn't consider FF #12 or #16 to be crossovers the way IM-Subby and Challs-Doom are. Those issues have guest-stars. I would consider IM-Subby to be the first Marvel SA cross-over. And Marvel Mystery Comics counts, if we consider that to be "Marvel Comics."
-- MSA
The FF/Hulk/Avengers story in Fantastic Four ##25-26 almost makes it by that definition. Both parts of the story appeared in Fantastic Four, but Avengers #5 starts off with the Avengers addressing the damage to the mansion from Fantastic Four #26.
Oh I would agree with your definition, MSA.... and yes, I think Luke Blanchard's example of the Hulk/Avengers/FF two part slugfest would certainly fit as well.... as opposed to just cameo appearances.
Right on, as usual!
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