There are two retcon mini-series running almost concurrently, one from Marvel and one from DC, which interest me. The DC one is the post-IKE Superman: Origin, and by way of introduction to Spiderman: The Clone Saga, here’s what I posted on June 26 of this year:
As some of you reading this may remember, I’m something of a fan of the Ben Reilly Spider-Man. I found Spider-Man to be virtually unreadable for years up until the beginning of the “Spider-Clone Saga” and I welcomed the return of the one, true Spider-Man (even if he had changed his name), the one I had grown up reading about. Others (most others, as it turned out) didn’t agree with me, and after a convoluted series of turn-arounds over the course of a few years, the entire storyline was eventually overturned, establishing once and for all that the character fans had come to know as “Peter Parker” actually was Peter Parker and always had been.
In September, Marvel is going to release the first issue of a six-issue miniseries Spider-Man: The Clone Saga, purported to be the story of “the Clone Saga as it was originally intended to be told!” The Clone Saga start to finish almost but not quite fills a long box, so this will help. This is good news for me, but the solicitation says, “You’ve been asking for it… and now it’s here: THE CLONE SAGA!!!” What I’d like to know is, who’s been asking for this?
The first issues of both series have shipped, and whereas S:SO has so far proven everything I had hoped, S:CS is not at all what I had expected! I had expected it to be a more focused retelling of the original, but what it appears to be instead is the post-One More Day series of events as they unfolded in Mephisto’s Brand New Day reality.
There have been two pretty big EYKIWs so far: first, Aunt May knows Ben Reilly (as a distant relative) and has, unbeknownst to Peter, kept in contact with him in the years since the Jackal’s original experiments, and second, the body threw in the smokestack was Ben Reilly, whereas in the original version it was the corpse of yet another Peter Parker clone.
I’m intrigued to learn how this will play out.
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The original storyline established definitely and unequivically that "Ben Reilly" was the original Peter Parker (and even had no less a personage than the High Evolutionary testify to the fact)... then had to reverse that revelation when it proved unpopular among fans. They even went so far as to have "Ben Reilly" disintigrate on panel. I didn't like Marvel's reversal, but it would have been more palatable to me if it had been handled as in this retcon. Theevents of this mini proceed more or less in order, albeit highly compressed, but with a few twists thrown in along the way. In this issue, the Jackal reveals (discovers, actually) that Ben is the original and Peter is the clone. Later, after Peter, soon to be a father, relinquishes his costumed identity to Ben, the "new" Spider-Man thinks, "I honestly don't know if I'm the original or the clone. None of that really matters anymore. Today is the first day of my life and... I am Spider-Man!"
Even after the decision had been made to bring back Peter Parker and "lose" Baby May, they could have at least left it open ended for readers such as myself (okay, just me) rather than disinigrating poor Ben on panel. Now I hear they're revisiting the Clone Saga in the current titles. Since the mini also deals with Baby May (and publically acknowledges her very existance), it will be interesting to see if that long-dangling plotline will also be revisited in current continuity.
Just to clarify, the Spider-Man: Clone Saga mini isn't a retcon, it's a What If? story, specifically, "What if Editorial hadn't screwed up the Clone Saga and let the writers tell the story they wanted to?"
"Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog, it's too dark to read." -Groucho Marx
Check out theSecret Headquarters(my store) website! It's a pretty lame website, but I did it myself, so tough noogies
Listen toWOXY.com, it's the future of rock-n-roll!
Well, yes, that's how they're spinning it, but they're changing plenty of details along the way, too.
Figserello said:
BTW, in current continuity, that baby was born 'out of wedlock'.
Wait a minute... you mean Marvel actually acknowledges the existence of Baby May in continuity!?
Not at the moment, but I'm guessing they will eventually. Its all grist to the mill.
I've just been disappointed how quickly BND went from being a bold new direction to being an excuse to dust off the old storylines and characters that we've seen dozens of times before. And Kain, where once was enough, I'd have thought.
Just to clarify, the Spider-Man: Clone Saga mini isn't a retcon, it's a What If? story, specifically, "What if Editorial hadn't screwed up the Clone Saga and let the writers tell the story they wanted to?"
I think its no secret that the creators generally care much less about continuity than the fans. We're starting to see the Big Two tell more stories out of continuity like this.
There is no way I believe this min-series represents “the clone Saga as it was originally intended to be told!” (quoted verbatim from Previews’ May solicitation of the hardcover collection), no matter how many time Marvel attempts to spin it that way. Speaking of the collection, it’s titled Spider-Man: The Real Clone Saga (emphasis mine), but there’s no way this retcon is anything more than a “What If…?” or (dare I say it?) “imaginary story.” If you want to avoid spoilers, stop reading here.
First, the “mastermind” behind the whole now-even-more-convoluted plot is none other than the then-presumed-dead Harry Osborn (or it may have been his clone, I’m not certain). The Norman Osborn of the story is a clone, created by Harry. Norman ends up teaming up with Spider-Man (Peter Parker) and the Scarlet Spider (Ben Reilly) against Harry. Unfortunately, artist Todd Nauck doesn’t have the artistic chops to visually differentiate between Harry and Norman (not that it makes that much of a difference because the plot makes so little sense).
In this version of events, Ben Reilly never assumes the Spider-Man identity, and does not die in the end, and the kidnapped Baby May is safely returned to Peter and Mary Jane. Perhaps the most significant deviation from the original is that it not established which Spider is the clone. Earlier in the series, the Jackal revealed that “Peter Parker” was the clone, yet in this issue Harry Osborn maintains that “Ben Reilly” is the clone. I find it highly ironic that the same issue of Previews which lists the hardcover collection of this mini-series also lists volume two of “the nineties’ pivotal Spider-saga” Spider-Man: The Complete Clone Saga Epic.
Sheesh! Talk about having your cake and eating it, too!
So, last night my daughter (age 19) asked if Norman Osborne was alive or not, and what Harry's status was. that's a hard one to answer, cause there's been so many bounces in this story.
As I related more and more of the odd story of Norman being killed right after Gwen Stacy dies in the fall, her eyes got wider and wider.
Then, as I introduced the concept that Gwen was cloned, and that Peter was cloned, she guessed that Norman was cloned as well. I had to tell her no.
So I started to tell her some of the madness that follows in the Maximum clonage arc, and that the writers and editorial had painted themselves into a corner, and that there was no rational explanation for anything...and that they decided to step back from it all and claim there was somebody over all pulling the strings....a powerful, influential, wealthy, brilliant and knowledgeable villain...
"Like KINGPIN" she asked... I was stunned for a moment, cause I thought I had made it clear that I was telling the tale of Norman Osborn...
"But he's DEAD" she complained, and I told her that didn't get in the way for the editor to solve the mess that they had created. Now, whether he proves to be revealed as a clone or not remains to be scene.
Then she tells me that she knows that Normal has been flying around, running the Thunderbolts, and wondered if Harry was still alive or insane... as she remembers the third Spider-Man movie when he becomes the Goblin.
I didn't have the heart to tell her of the American Patriot or favorite son storyline, cause i was now 2 a.m. and we were tired.
Well, she says, there are some people who like things that are SO bad that they are almost good. I wonder if they've ever reprinted it or collected it."
Oh no, i assure her, they'd never do that...it was so bad. The first rule of publishing is to make a profit and so you want to print something that will sell, not create a loss.
Well, just let me look it up on my computer, she said. And then she proceeds to tell me that there are multiple collections... of the Clone Saga, the original Clone Saga, the Osborne Journals, the Ultimate Clone Saga. I couldn't believe it.
Can anyone tell me which, if any, of the various collections are the simpliest and most direct method of getting and understanding the story.
As I recall, even Lucy Ricardo couldn't admit to a pregancy...and they had to share separate marital beds as well. Twin beds were the rule. Never a double on TV!
Figserello said:
Nothing goes away. What has been said cannot be unsaid...
BTW, in current continuity, that baby was born 'out of wedlock'.
Not that there's anything wrong with that, unless you're Marvel Comics and stuck in some 50s neverland where even divorce is a dirty word...
I can help you with your question, Kirk. I’m not familiar with the exact contents of the recent tpbs, but I can tell you that the entire “saga,” from the introduction of Ben Reilly to his death, fills an entire long box. Being (seemingly) the only fan in America who approved of the idea that “Ben Reilly” is Peter Parker and “Peter Parker” is the clone, I am in a unique position to point out some of the highlights of this extended storyline through a series of one-shots and mini-series.
SPIDER-MAN: THE OSBORN JOURNAL: This is theone comic that lays out the sundry twists and turns of the Clone Saga in all of its convoluted glory.
SPIDER-MAN: DEAD MAN’S HAND: The key piece of evidence that “Ben Reilly” was, in fact, the original Peter Parker happened when the High Evolutionary himself confirmed it! This after-the-fact one-shot attempts to explain how the High Evolutionary could have made such an error (and why it wasn’t really an “error” per se after all).
Beyond that, there are a couple of pivotal limited series, complete with beginning, middle and end, if you are interested in exploring the life of “Ben Reilly” further.
SPIDER-MAN: THE LOST YEARS #0-4: #0 collects back-up features from the various Spider-titles of the day and is actually separate from the Lost Years min-series proper. But it retells the original Clone Sagea (from the clone’s point of view), then leads directly into and picks up exactly from the end of it.
SPIDER-MAN: REDEMPTION #1-4: Subtitled “The Lost Years Found,” this mini-series is a direct sequel to “The Lost Years.”
”REVELATIONS”: This is the end of the Clone Saga and, together with “The Lost Years,” bookends Ben Reilly’s appearances. This isn’t a mini-series (and I don’t know whether it’s been collected or not), but it comprises Spectacular Spider-Man #240, Sensational Spider-Man #11, Amazing Spider-Man #418 and Peter Parker #75.
Of course, there is much, much more than this (“Maximum Cloneage,” Spider-Man: The Final Adventure, etc.). Ben Reilly served a long stint as the Scarlet Spider before taking over being Spider-Man from Peter Parker, and I can make some recommendations for the best of those stories as well, if you’re interested. I would also like to take this opportunity to make you (Kirk) an offer. If your daughter is interested in reading the original clone story, send your address to me in a PM and I’ll send you the tpb Clone Genesis (reprinting #141-151 and Giant-Size #5) gratis.
Replies
The original storyline established definitely and unequivically that "Ben Reilly" was the original Peter Parker (and even had no less a personage than the High Evolutionary testify to the fact)... then had to reverse that revelation when it proved unpopular among fans. They even went so far as to have "Ben Reilly" disintigrate on panel. I didn't like Marvel's reversal, but it would have been more palatable to me if it had been handled as in this retcon. Theevents of this mini proceed more or less in order, albeit highly compressed, but with a few twists thrown in along the way. In this issue, the Jackal reveals (discovers, actually) that Ben is the original and Peter is the clone. Later, after Peter, soon to be a father, relinquishes his costumed identity to Ben, the "new" Spider-Man thinks, "I honestly don't know if I'm the original or the clone. None of that really matters anymore. Today is the first day of my life and... I am Spider-Man!"
Even after the decision had been made to bring back Peter Parker and "lose" Baby May, they could have at least left it open ended for readers such as myself (okay, just me) rather than disinigrating poor Ben on panel. Now I hear they're revisiting the Clone Saga in the current titles. Since the mini also deals with Baby May (and publically acknowledges her very existance), it will be interesting to see if that long-dangling plotline will also be revisited in current continuity.
Me, I'm not holding my breath.
BTW, in current continuity, that baby was born 'out of wedlock'.
Not that there's anything wrong with that, unless you're Marvel Comics and stuck in some 50s neverland where even divorce is a dirty word...
"Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog, it's too dark to read." -Groucho Marx
Check out the Secret Headquarters (my store) website! It's a pretty lame website, but I did it myself, so tough noogies
Listen to WOXY.com, it's the future of rock-n-roll!
Figserello said:
Wait a minute... you mean Marvel actually acknowledges the existence of Baby May in continuity!?
Not at the moment, but I'm guessing they will eventually. Its all grist to the mill.
I've just been disappointed how quickly BND went from being a bold new direction to being an excuse to dust off the old storylines and characters that we've seen dozens of times before. And Kain, where once was enough, I'd have thought.
Just to clarify, the Spider-Man: Clone Saga mini isn't a retcon, it's a What If? story, specifically, "What if Editorial hadn't screwed up the Clone Saga and let the writers tell the story they wanted to?"
I think its no secret that the creators generally care much less about continuity than the fans. We're starting to see the Big Two tell more stories out of continuity like this.
There is no way I believe this min-series represents “the clone Saga as it was originally intended to be told!” (quoted verbatim from Previews’ May solicitation of the hardcover collection), no matter how many time Marvel attempts to spin it that way. Speaking of the collection, it’s titled Spider-Man: The Real Clone Saga (emphasis mine), but there’s no way this retcon is anything more than a “What If…?” or (dare I say it?) “imaginary story.” If you want to avoid spoilers, stop reading here.
First, the “mastermind” behind the whole now-even-more-convoluted plot is none other than the then-presumed-dead Harry Osborn (or it may have been his clone, I’m not certain). The Norman Osborn of the story is a clone, created by Harry. Norman ends up teaming up with Spider-Man (Peter Parker) and the Scarlet Spider (Ben Reilly) against Harry. Unfortunately, artist Todd Nauck doesn’t have the artistic chops to visually differentiate between Harry and Norman (not that it makes that much of a difference because the plot makes so little sense).
In this version of events, Ben Reilly never assumes the Spider-Man identity, and does not die in the end, and the kidnapped Baby May is safely returned to Peter and Mary Jane. Perhaps the most significant deviation from the original is that it not established which Spider is the clone. Earlier in the series, the Jackal revealed that “Peter Parker” was the clone, yet in this issue Harry Osborn maintains that “Ben Reilly” is the clone. I find it highly ironic that the same issue of Previews which lists the hardcover collection of this mini-series also lists volume two of “the nineties’ pivotal Spider-saga” Spider-Man: The Complete Clone Saga Epic.
Sheesh! Talk about having your cake and eating it, too!
So, last night my daughter (age 19) asked if Norman Osborne was alive or not, and what Harry's status was. that's a hard one to answer, cause there's been so many bounces in this story.
As I related more and more of the odd story of Norman being killed right after Gwen Stacy dies in the fall, her eyes got wider and wider.
Then, as I introduced the concept that Gwen was cloned, and that Peter was cloned, she guessed that Norman was cloned as well. I had to tell her no.
So I started to tell her some of the madness that follows in the Maximum clonage arc, and that the writers and editorial had painted themselves into a corner, and that there was no rational explanation for anything...and that they decided to step back from it all and claim there was somebody over all pulling the strings....a powerful, influential, wealthy, brilliant and knowledgeable villain...
"Like KINGPIN" she asked... I was stunned for a moment, cause I thought I had made it clear that I was telling the tale of Norman Osborn...
"But he's DEAD" she complained, and I told her that didn't get in the way for the editor to solve the mess that they had created. Now, whether he proves to be revealed as a clone or not remains to be scene.
Then she tells me that she knows that Normal has been flying around, running the Thunderbolts, and wondered if Harry was still alive or insane... as she remembers the third Spider-Man movie when he becomes the Goblin.
I didn't have the heart to tell her of the American Patriot or favorite son storyline, cause i was now 2 a.m. and we were tired.
Well, she says, there are some people who like things that are SO bad that they are almost good. I wonder if they've ever reprinted it or collected it."
Oh no, i assure her, they'd never do that...it was so bad. The first rule of publishing is to make a profit and so you want to print something that will sell, not create a loss.
Well, just let me look it up on my computer, she said. And then she proceeds to tell me that there are multiple collections... of the Clone Saga, the original Clone Saga, the Osborne Journals, the Ultimate Clone Saga. I couldn't believe it.
Can anyone tell me which, if any, of the various collections are the simpliest and most direct method of getting and understanding the story.
As I recall, even Lucy Ricardo couldn't admit to a pregancy...and they had to share separate marital beds as well. Twin beds were the rule. Never a double on TV!
Figserello said:
I can help you with your question, Kirk. I’m not familiar with the exact contents of the recent tpbs, but I can tell you that the entire “saga,” from the introduction of Ben Reilly to his death, fills an entire long box. Being (seemingly) the only fan in America who approved of the idea that “Ben Reilly” is Peter Parker and “Peter Parker” is the clone, I am in a unique position to point out some of the highlights of this extended storyline through a series of one-shots and mini-series.
SPIDER-MAN: THE OSBORN JOURNAL: This is the one comic that lays out the sundry twists and turns of the Clone Saga in all of its convoluted glory.
SPIDER-MAN: DEAD MAN’S HAND: The key piece of evidence that “Ben Reilly” was, in fact, the original Peter Parker happened when the High Evolutionary himself confirmed it! This after-the-fact one-shot attempts to explain how the High Evolutionary could have made such an error (and why it wasn’t really an “error” per se after all).
Beyond that, there are a couple of pivotal limited series, complete with beginning, middle and end, if you are interested in exploring the life of “Ben Reilly” further.
SPIDER-MAN: THE LOST YEARS #0-4: #0 collects back-up features from the various Spider-titles of the day and is actually separate from the Lost Years min-series proper. But it retells the original Clone Sagea (from the clone’s point of view), then leads directly into and picks up exactly from the end of it.
SPIDER-MAN: REDEMPTION #1-4: Subtitled “The Lost Years Found,” this mini-series is a direct sequel to “The Lost Years.”
”REVELATIONS”: This is the end of the Clone Saga and, together with “The Lost Years,” bookends Ben Reilly’s appearances. This isn’t a mini-series (and I don’t know whether it’s been collected or not), but it comprises Spectacular Spider-Man #240, Sensational Spider-Man #11, Amazing Spider-Man #418 and Peter Parker #75.
Of course, there is much, much more than this (“Maximum Cloneage,” Spider-Man: The Final Adventure, etc.). Ben Reilly served a long stint as the Scarlet Spider before taking over being Spider-Man from Peter Parker, and I can make some recommendations for the best of those stories as well, if you’re interested. I would also like to take this opportunity to make you (Kirk) an offer. If your daughter is interested in reading the original clone story, send your address to me in a PM and I’ll send you the tpb Clone Genesis (reprinting #141-151 and Giant-Size #5) gratis.
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