I just reread the Squadron Supreme maxiseries from 1985-86 and it got me thinking of its ramifications, origins and possible agenda.
I decided to go through their earlier appearances in Avengers, Thor and Defenders and see how they evolved.
I also decided that I would not be including the appearances of the Squadron SINISTER, at least for now! Should there be interest in that topic, we'll have to see!
However, I feel that I should include the first appearance of the villainous Squadron since the heroic Squadron sprung from it!
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Let me jump in with some thoughts from the Long Before Time! (Because 1960s Avengers is one of my favorite topics.)
I drew a lot of comics as a kid (I suspect many of us did) and when I'd do a Justice League vs. Avengers story in the 1960s, I'd always match:
Needless to say, this was 1968 or later, so I could use Vision and Black Panther, who both joined that year. That brought the total Avengers roster up to 10, roughly matching the JLA.
I didn't use the Hulk, because he wasn't really associated with the Avengers in my youth. He had no significant appearances in the book between issues #3 and #100, and I was already cheating by ringing in the Sub-Mariner (or otherwise Aquaman would have nothing to do). Besides, the Hulk was an angry child in those days, and had a real mad-on for the Avengers. He'd more likely team up with the Justice League than fight them.
If you look at those matchups, though, they're pretty lopsided. Superman wins (from orbit, as the joke goes), unless Thor gets in a lucky shot with the magic hammer. Flash is faster than Quicksilver (speed of light vs. ... really fast). Iron Man and Scarlet Witch would barely slow Green Lantern and Wonder Woman down. Batman has an arsenal, while Captain America has a metal disk. Green Arrow vs. Hawkeye is a stalemate, and so is Atom vs. the Pyms, probably. As for Hawkman vs. Black Panther -- neither was anything to write home about in those days (Panther was just a costumed acrobat in those days), so who cares?
As for the last matchup, it's close, but I think the Manhunter would win over Vision. They both can become intangible, they both can become very strong, they both have heat vision. But MM has a catalog of eye-beams, not just heat vision, plus telepathy, shape-changing and flying vs. floating. Maybe Vizh could get lucky and start a fire.
But better still, after 1968 there was no more Wonder Woman, after 1969 there was no more Martian Manhunter and in the early 1970s Green Lantern's power ring was cut to half-strength and Superman's powers were being stolen by the Quarmer. New members in the '70s were far less powerful: Black Canary, Elongated Man, Hawkgirl, Red Tornado, Zatanna. The power levels began to equalize, and some much more equal matches emerged. Thor, Iron Man and Scarlet Witch could plausibly win their matches against half-powered Superman, half-powered Green Lantern and Black Canary, respectively. (Although Wanda would face Zatanna after 1978.) Vision would dismantle Red Tornado.
Anyway, in the Silver Age I had to sweat to rig the game to give the Avengers a fighting chance. (Who wins a fight between superheroes? Whoever the writer says wins the fight.) Of course, I was always working toward stalemate with nobody losing -- they're all heroes! -- but it took some jerry-rigging. The 1960s Justice League is just so powerful, that each of the Silver Age versions of Superman, Green Lantern, Flash, Wonder Woman and Martian Manhunter alone could give the entire 1960s roster of Avengers a hard time. (There were only 10 members total in those days, and only Thor, Iron Man and Vision could be considered formidable.) Sometimes I'd bring in the Fantastic Four just to give the Marvel side a fighting chance (and to explain Namor's presence). Human Torch vs. Martian Manhunter was a pretty quick fight, and Sue Storm, I think, could whip Wonder Woman handily. (Invisible bubble around Diana's head, stay behind invisible shield until she passes out.)
Anyway, the standard grouping of Avengers in those days was Black Panther, Goliath II (Clint Barton), Vision, Yellowjacket and Wasp. They would stand zero chance against Superman, Green Lantern, Flash and Batman. Excuse me, I meant to say Hyperion, Doctor Spectrum, Whizzer and Nighthawk.
But fortunately, Roy Thomas had been using Thor and Iron Man in an ad hoc way for several issues. And he had brought Captain America back into the fold in the issue prior to this (Cap had quit the team back in #48). I know now from various forewords and articles that, while Stan Lee thought the perfect number for a super-team was four, Roy Thomas thought it was seven. And he was itching to use Thor and Iron Man, but Stan kept saying "no." So he kept ringing them in informally as guest stars, and it's a good thing he did, because they were certainly needful here!
So:
Pretty close to my hand-drawn comic books. Let the games (and Philip's thoughts) begin!
What about Snapper Carr Vs Rick Jones!
When I first start reading comics, I had far more Marvel Triple Action than The Avengers proper, not really getting the main series until #137 (Jl'75). For the longest time, "Cap's Kooky Quartet" was my Avengers with the return of Goliath (my sentimental favorite Hank Pym identity) and the Wasp. To me, Hercules was the game-changer as far as a JLA/Avengers conflict!
Thor, Iron Man AND Hercules could keep the odds more or less even!
AVENGERS #70 (N'69): "When Strikes the Squadron Sinister!"
writer: Roy Thomas
art: Sal Buscema and Sam Grainger
editor: Stan Lee
Kang the Conqueror has entered a contest against the cosmic Grandmaster with the world at stake! The Temporal Tyrant chooses the Avengers as his champions while the Grandmaster creates the Squadron Sinister!
Later we would learn that the Gaming Gambler had previously encountered the Squadron Supreme in a contest against the Scarlet Centurion (another version of Kang) and based his Squadron on them. Thus while the Squadron Sinister appeared first publishing-wise, in-story chronology, the Squadron Supreme already existed!
Across the world, Thor would defeat Hyperion in Egypt, Captain America vanquished Nighthawk in New York City, Iron Man would beat Doctor Spectrum in India and Goliath II would have trounced the Whizzer in London had not the Black Knight interfered, jeopardizing the game.
It looked like the Squadron Sinister would continue to take part in the story but they weren't in the next issues!
No secret to anyone (except a young me--more on that later), the Squadron Sinister was based on the heroes of DC's Justice League of America. It has been noted that Stan Lee had no desire to "poke the bear" over at DC and also not wanting any lawsuits so it would be interesting to know how Roy Thomas convinced Stan to go along with the Squadron Sinister, if Stan noticed the similarities at all.
One by one:
HYPERION (Superman): Sole Survivor of an atom-sized world destroyed when the first atom was split (what are the odds?) now enlarged with powers and abilities far beyond those of mortal men but not Asgardian Thunder Gods! Hyper-strength, speed, invulnerabilty, flight and atomic vision, all don't help when Thor shrinks him and imprisons him in a glass globe (somehow)!
It's one thing to create a Superman-like villain, it's quite the other to leave him on the loose!
NIGHTHAWK (Batman): a bored, wealthy man given "night-spawned prowess" and the only one given a civilain name, Kyle Richmond (how clever), the Dark Traitor has his Night-Flier jet and various explosives to go with his acrobatic skills! He's no match for Captain America!
He would soon reappear in Daredevil #62 (Ma'70), seemingly turning good but it was a lie. By Defenders #13-14 (My-Jl'74) he would turn good for real, save the world he betrayed and no longer be a third-rate Batman but a second-rate Hawkman and join the Non-Team!
DOCTOR SPECTRUM (Green Lantern): weilding an alien power prism, the Colorful Criminal can create energy constructs. However the Prism is sentient and the two fight for control! They would have defeated Iron Man had he not figured out their weakness to ultra-violet light!
The Prism would pass to several other people to become Doctor Spectrum. He would get a rematch with the Golden Avenger in Iron Man #63-65 (O-D'74)!
THE WHIZZER II (The Flash): given a special pellet that grants him super-speed, he is the most sadistic of the four. He does know about the Golden Age Whizzer, a little nod to The Flash #123. He's not around long enough to learn more about him!
The Squadron Sinister would not reunite until Defenders #13-14 (My-Jl'74)!
Next: I Don't Want to Set the World on Fire or Who Are These Guys?
Here is some "color commentary" from Roy Thomas to go along with Philip's "play-by-play":
ROY THOMAS: "But--who should our quartet of Avengers fight? Well, since their DC opposite number was the Justice League of AMerica, the super-hero group that had inspired the launching of Marvel's Fantastic Four and everything that followed, I thought up four baddies who were parodies (homages? dopplegangers?) of the four main JLA stalwarts; if I'd thought about it for another few minutes, I'd probably have tossed in a Wonder Woman type, as well. In a move unusual for me, I even visually designed them, on a model sheet prepared by John Romita. I wanted Dr. Spectrum to have a blending of colors with a white 'chest symbol'--Hyperion to give the Superman feel without really duplicating any lines in his costume (and I swiped his off-one-shoulder cape from an obscure Golden Age hero, Dynamic Man)--Nighthawk's name was inspired by a minor fandom hoax essayed by my old friend Richard Kyle--and the Whizzer was an up-to-date version of Timely/Marvel's 1940s hero. And no, at the time I hd no idea that, a year later, I would revive and expand the assemblage--as a bunch of good guys, this time--under the name 'Squadron Supreme.' Let alone that they'd still be rattling around the Marvel Universe four decades later!
"Sal really ran with the ball on that one. Particualrly pleasing to me was the way he coreographed Hyperion's moves to suggest those of Wayne Boring's iconic version of the Man of Steel, particularly on p. 14. (Oh, and by the way, that name--it's that of the Greek sun god, of course, whom I recently had a chance to 'write' in person in the Marvel Illustrated adaptation of Homer's Odyssey. But I took it from a line in Shakespeare's Hamlet, wherein the melancholy Dane compares his late father to his murderous uncle: '...that was to this, Hyperion to a satyr.')"
The Hyperion stuff I knew and we'll get to Wayne Boring eventually!
Should we consider ourselves lucky that Roy never expanded the Squadron Sinister or not? I have mixed feelings about that!
"no longer be a third-rate Batman but a second-rate Hawkman" this cracked me up! So true!
The Defenders matchup against the Squadron wasn't as groovy as it could have been, because Silver Surfer wasn't part of the team at the time. It could have been:
Or, really, you could shake that up since they're not direct parallels. And Marvel would win handily, making up for all those comics I drew where they were apt to lose!
As for Hercules, I tend to forget about him. He hung around the Avengers for about a calendar year, but wasn't in every issue. And to li'l me, he was a second-rate Thor. He didn't become a member until issue #45 (after being introduced in #38) and was gone by issue #50. He and Thor were never on the team at the same time until the modern age.
But that doesn't mean we can't use him in our dream matchups!
The funny thing about Nighthawk is that Marvel already had the Angel and the Falcon, both bigger stars than Nighthawk, IMHO, let alone the Vulture, Bird-Man and other winged baddies. Heck, Roy already revived Red Raven (and would do so again). Kyle Richmond was superfluous as a winged hero but as a "Caped Crusader"? He would have beaten Moon Knight and the Shroud!
Then again Roy did write Daredevil #62 so maybe he had a soft spot for his Creature of the Night!
Also, by the time the Defenders fought the Squadron, poor Valkyrie didn't have a Wonder Woman analogue to fight!
DC did have Hercules battle Superman so maybe the Marvel version could have borrowed Olympian powers as well!
DC's "answer" to Avengers #70 came in Justice League of America #87, when Mike Friedrich and Dick Dillon introduced Jack B. Quick (Quicksilver), Silver Sorceress (Scarlet Witch), Blue Jay (Yellow Jacket) and the Australian Aborigine God of Rain, Wandjina (Thor) and pitted them against (respectively) Flash, Zatanna, Atom and Green Lantern. Keith Giffen, J.M. DeMatteis and Kevin Maguire later brought them back in Justice League #2-3 (minus Jack B. Quick, who had since changed his name to "Captain Speed" and then died).
I never thought "The Heroes of Angor" were a "good" answer!
And I didn't like it when the Silver Sorceress (who wore no silver) and Blue Jay joined the Justice League!
There was also a "Bowman" I think who also died!
Mitch Wacky (Walt Disney) went back in time to stop the destruciton of Angor, and I think he succeeded, which means, that none of the Justifiers would have died. And we met some new ones, including Bowman (Hawkeye), Bug (Spider-Man), Tin Man (Iron Man) and T.A. (a woman with metal wings). I don't know who T.A. is supposed to be, and shudder to think what those initials stand for.
They had a role in Final Crisis, and may have met their end there. It's all pretty fuzzy to me now.
There have been at least two other versions of these characters in DC Comics, the Meta-Militia of Earth-8 and later the Retaliators of Earth-8. Earth-7 also had a version, but they were destroyed in Multiversity before we saw them. Only "The Thunderer" survived.
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