If you were a fan of Jack Kirby's "Fourth World" titles and then read his "epic conclusion," The Hunger Dogs, chances are you were disappointed. That's largely because DC Comics, in their infinite wisdom, decided to purposefully present the pages wildly out of order, for reasons we need not go into here. Suffice it to say that the project started out as a mini-series, then was converted to a graphic novel mid-stream. The practical upshot is, as a public service, I have decided to post a guide to reading The Hunger Dogs in the page-order Kirby intended. If you have never read it this way, you'll be surprised how much better it reads. (This exercise follows the page numbering of Jack Kirby's Fourth World Omnibus Volume Four.)
First, start on page 341 and read the pages in the following order:
- Pages 341-343
- Pages 320-322
- Pages 344-347
- Pages 323-328
- Pages 348-356
- Pages 261-308
NOTE: Pages 261-308 comprise "In the Final Analysis... EVEN GODS MUST DIE!," which was actually written and drawn after The Hunger Dogs.
This brings us up to the actual beginning of the graphic novel, which begins on page 311. (From this point on, it's possible to follow the story, in order, by reading only the "odd-sized" pages.)
- Pages 311-319
- Pages 329-340
- Pages 357-372.
- THE END
In addition, for maximum enjoyment, please add the following captions (missing from the final, published version, but visible on the original art) as indicated below.
Pages 320-321 (double-page spread): "It exists among Gods, even as it does among men, the slum and its inhabitants are a universal concept... on Apokolips, the place called Armagetto shelters the 'lowlies'... and the strange whisper of a destiny yet unnamed."
Page 341: "LISTEN FOR THE SOUNDS OF THESE DAYS! The Gods conceal them benetah the raucous din of the frantic arts! FASTEN YOURSELF TO THE VISIONS OF THESE TIMES!... cast not by ourselves... but only those of the Gods."
Page 343: "A poor wretch suddenly dies on Apokolips in great gouts of flame! He is destroyed by an invisible weapon--the mark of a new era in the seething nature of the NEW GODS On the Road to Armagetto.'"
What I have done is hardcopied these captions to little slips of paper and placed them between pages as indicated. In addition, I have written "go-to" page numbers on itty-bitty Post-It notes and affixed them to the bottom of the appropriate pages. I will never read The Hunger Dogs in any other order. Until DC sees fit to publish a re-edited version (which will likely never happen because they had their chance with the omnibus), this is a good work-around. I did this years ago, but just today I similarly reconstructed the (second) Super Powers limited series, concentrating on the "Fourth World" elements but eliminating most of the storyline pushing the super-hero toy-line. This edit isn't as "clean" as the Hunger Dogs one because the "cuts" sometimes occur in the middle of pages, but if you follow along you'll be able to figure it out easily enough. This exercise follows the page numbering of The Jack Kirby Omnibus Volume Two (as well as the original series).
ISSUE #1: Pages 472-479 (or pp. 1-8);
ISSUE #2: Pages 501-502 (or pp. 6-7);
ISSUE #3: Pages 528-529 (or pp. 8-9);
ISSUE #4: Pages 548-550 (or pp. 5-7);
ISSUE #5: Pages 568-569 (or pp. 1-2);
ISSUE #6: Pages 596, 602, 605 & 612-613 (or pp. 6, 12, 15 & 22-23).
I have long considered Super Powers a "gulity pleasure" of mine, but the pages above are the only ones I read.
Replies
So, let me see if I got this straight.
The original, early 1970s run of "New Gods" by Jack Kirby runs from #1 to #11, published in 1972.
From there there is a fork in continuity; chronologically, there was initially a Gerry Conway run in 1976-1978 ("1st Issue Special' #13, "New Gods" #12-19, Super-Team Family #15 and Adventure Comics #459-460). This branch of continuity has been largely forgotten, except for leading to 1980's story in "Justice League of America" #183-185, which apparently entered post-Crisis continuity with few changes and is indeed still in continuity. In practice, all that means is that several classic members of the JLA and the JSA besides Superman and the Barry Allen Flash once met Darkseid before Crisis.
All the same, Gerry Conway's work with the New Gods has been largely disregarded since. A second volume of "New Gods" was published in 1984 and, judging by the "As they really are" blurb in #1's cover, had a clear mission of pointing out that we were meant to disregard Conway's run. That series was almost entirely composed of reprints of the original Kirby run (#1-11), but the exception is the new story "Even Gods Must Die" that composes the second half of "New Gods" Vol 2 #6 (cover included above by Jeff).
That story leads into 1985's "DC Graphic Novel #4: The Hunger Dogs", which apparently had been ready to publish for some time already. To the best of my knowledge that was the last appearance of the Fourth World and of the New Gods before Crisis.
Then came the second volume of "Super Powers" (#1-6, 1985-1986), which was published entirely during the original publication of "Crisis". It is clearly not set in the main continuity of stories from either before or after Crisis, but nonetheless follows from events of some version of "The Hunger Dogs". It is also drawn by Jack Kirby and written by Paul Kupperberg, but presumably with some degree of acceptance by Kirby.
While the New Gods would receive new volumes after that (starting with Vol. 3 by Mark Evanier and others in 1989, following from "Cosmic Odyssey"), that is the extent of Kirby's participation in those characters' comics. It was all (or mostly) collected in a 2007-2008 four-volume omnibus, which had a curious choice of page placement in #4, leading to this thread.
Is that about right?
Yep, that's about it.
From there the story "continues" (unofficially, after a fashion) in Captain Victory #11-13, the "Origin Trilogy." I like your phrase "some version of The Hunger Dogs" because that's exactly what this series follows. "Apokolips" becomes "Hellikost," "Darkseid" becomes "Blackmass," and so on. The unnamed main character (who will one day take the code name "Captain Victory") is the grandson of Darkseid, son of Orion. The ruler of Hellikost is also a grandson of Darkseid, son of Kalibak, cousin of Captain Victory.
"Think of a giant planet that blazes with unrestrained energies--a place of Ultimates--its people schooled in Ultimates, who have smashed for all time, a powerful sister planet--suddenly, ruthlessly, removed from its enemy's goal--the conquest of the entire cosmos!!
"Think of Ultimate War, fought with Ultimate Technologies, a final struggle in which frenzied Gods vanished with their leaders in the flames of hate!--Hate in triumph! Hate in the saddle! Hate so strong that it was able to salvage and 'give' 'half-life' to the thoughts and voice' of it's greatest disciple--!
"From that kind of war, not even names survived... Thus Hellikost, and those upon it, were false in name as well as word..."
Here Kirby introduces an entire "next generation" of "New Gods" and assorted characters: Father Blackmass, Big Ugly, Brother Pias, King Zarid, the War Dogs, the super-computer Turai, and Captain Argas Flane. Yet no one has seen fit to collect/reprint it in archival format. Too bad.
Like father...
...like son.
I'm wrapping my head around this, too.
So if I have
Jack Kirby's Fourth World Omnibus Volume Four, which I do, then I should read in this order:
Right?
Almost.
If you want to start with the '70s material, your first division should be pages 1-256, not 1-310. [Note that pages 261-308 comprise "In the Final Analysis... EVEN GODS MUST DIE!" and are already included in the overall count. (Pages 257-260 reprint covers of the reprint series.)] If you want to read just the '80s material, start with page 341.
If you read the pages in this order, be sure to let us know what you think.
There is an often-referenced prophecy about the last fight between Orion and Darkseid. Where was it first presented?
New Gods #11.
Throughout the series, Orion did not know that he was the son of of Darkseid (although Highfather and Metron discussed it as early as #1). In #5, even Slig seems to know. When Orion's true face is revealed in battle, Slig says, "The rumors about you are true!" which Orion misinterprets as, "Yes, you croaking frog! The rumors are true!! Orion is flawed!!" When he fights Kalibak in #8, Orion says, "We fought when we were young, Kalibak! We fight fully grown! And we shall fight till death takes one of us!! There's something we share that's always driven us to each other! --what it is, I cannot say!! But we shall seek each other out until it's done!"
In #9, Orion shouts the follwing soliloquy: "LET MY ROARS BE HEARD ACROSS THE WIDE SPACES!! IN THE CRACKS AND CREVICES THAT COVER DARKSEID!! COME OUT! SHOW YOURSELF! SEND ME NO LESSER BEASTS LIKE KALIBAK! HEAR ME DARKSEID! IN THE END IT SHALL BE YOU AND I! POWER AGAINST POWER! YOUR DEATH--OR MINE!" but that's really more of a prediction than a prophecy. In #11, Darkseid confirms (to Desaad) that Tigra is the mother of Orion and the sorceress Suli is the mother of Kalibak, making them half-brothers. Later that same issue, Orion seems to figure it out for himself: "We must be brothers, you and I!--different sides of the same coin! True sons of Darkseid--the essence of his creed of total violence!" Once he has made that intuitive leap, he invokes the prophecy for the first time: "Destiny shall end it! It is written that the father of Apokolips shall meet his banished son in the red light of the fire-pits!--and there they shall decide this war!"
My question is: "Where did the Source Wall come from?" It's not from Kirby's New Gods. Everyone (everyone who's read it, anyway) remembers the image of the "Promethean Giant" introduced in #5, but they were "chained to the fragments of the devices they used in their attempts to smash the final barrier!!!" I suspect the "Source Wall" may have come from the Conway run, but I am not as familiar with his as I am with Kirby's.
I can't tell you when the Source Wall was named, but here's an interseting tidbit from the DC Fandom wiki:
"In the early Fourth World stories by Jack Kirby and Gerry Conway, the Source Wall was portrayed as a metaphysical barrier without a physical form, with the Promethean Giants strewn throughout space nearby. Starting with Marvel and DC Present #1 by Chris Claremont and Walt Simonson, it was portrayed as a physical wall with the Giants embedded in it. Even though this story was outside mainstream continuity, it set the appearance of the Source Wall for future stories."
That doesn't match my memories of a giant, Kirby-drawn wall with sone giants imbedded and searchlights blazing from their eyes, but maybe that was Walt Simonson, who drew Marvel and DC Present #1, doing his best Kirby imitation. Further unenthusiastic seconds of Googling gave me nothing further, so I am moving on. (For those wondering, Marvel and DC Present #1 was the 1982 X-Men/Teen Titans crossover, by Chris Claremont, Simonson and Terry Austin.)
It stands to reason, though, that if it wasn't a physical wall until X-Men/Teen Titans, it might not have been called a wall until then. It would likely have been called a "barrier" or or "force field" or somesuch before it was physical. I guess the critical test would be to look at the late 1970s Gerry Conway issues (which came out before X-Titans) and see what they called it there.
Having said all that, I AM going to follow Jeff's page-order recommendations above. I have in front of me Jack Kirby's Fourth World Omnibus series. Together, the four volumes collect Superman's Pal Jimmy Olsen #133-139, 141-148 (#140 was a pre-Kirby reprint collection), New Gods #1-11, Forever People #1-11, Mister Miracle #1-18 and the Hunger Dogs GN. Mister Miracle continued by other hands -- Englehart & Rogers for issues #19-22, Gerber & Golden #23-25 -- but those issues are not included. (And I assume they are no longer in continuity, like the later Conway books.) Mister Miracle #18 ends with the wedding of Scott Free and Big Barda and Darkseid laughing on page #256, and that is where I propose to begin.
The next four pages are cover reproductions, so I'll skip those. And I'll skip many of the following pages, for now, to pick up where Jeff's list begins: Pages #341-343. I'll report back when I've made some headway.
Apropos of nothing:
I remember John Byrne discussing the "Genesis" event and pointing out that the barrier was given a physical form and appearance by Walt Simonson. It must have been in the X-Men/New Titans crossover.
However, the Gerry Conway run had a plot involving the barrier as well.
The plot of "Super-Team Family #15" (the last issue of that volume, featuring a team-up between Flash and the New Gods) had the heroes travelling to the Promethean Galaxy and meeting the Promethean Giants there, presented as the last stop before 'the final barrier". The plot is all about a "I can't, but I must" situation of Flash having to go through the final barrier to find a device that can reverse the continuous growth of Orion's body. He succeeds and returns with no memory of what happened on the other side of the barrier (we don't see that either).
Much the same is said in "Adventure Comics" #459-460, which are AFAIK the trailing end of Conway's New Gods run. We are told that the Promethean Giants are made world-sized and imprisoned because they attempted to piece the barrier to learn the secret of the source and were punished in that way.
That is what Chris Claremont runs with in the X-Men/Titans issue, but there are some differences. Conway had a wave of trolls and after them some sort of time storm as defenses to discourage attempts at piercing the barrier. I don't think we saw those later. IIRC the early panels of X-Men/Titans correctly, Darkseid describes the Promethean Giants as a race "as proud and powerful" as the New Gods, not as assorted people who were punished in the same way.
Much later John Byrne has the New Gods interact with one of the Giants, who in this take is simply a being that has an incredibly long timespan and the perception to match it. He actually agrees to exchange places with, IIRC, Ares in order to free that god from the Wall, because for him it is no big deal to spend centuries as part of the Wall.
So it seems that the Source Wall was created by Chris Claremont (and/or perhaps Walt Simonson), as an extension of ideas that Gerry Conway played with regarding the final barrier and the Promethean Giants.
I can't tell you when the Source Wall was named, but... Starting with Marvel and DC Present #1 by Chris Claremont and Walt Simonson, it was portrayed as a physical wall with the Giants embedded in it.
I think that's the answer I was looking for. That was the earliest example I could think of, but as I indicated, I'm not too familiar with the Conway era.
I guess the critical test would be to look at the late 1970s Gerry Conway issues... and see what they called it there.
I just flipped through The New Gods by Gerry Conway hardcover (as well as Mister Miracle by Steve Englehart and Steve Gerber for good measure), and the Promethean Galaxy is portrayed no fewer than three times, each time "as a metaphysical barrier without a physical form, with the Promethean Giants strewn throughout space nearby" as reported in the DC Fandom wiki.
That doesn't match my memories of a giant, Kirby-drawn wall with stone giants imbedded and searchlights blazing from their eyes, but maybe that was Walt Simonson, who drew Marvel and DC Present #1, doing his best Kirby imitation.
Yes, the "searchlights blazing from their eyes" depiction is Simonson (but it looks like something Kirby might have drawn, doesn't it?).
Having said all that, I AM going to follow Jeff's page-order recommendations above... I'll report back when I've made some headway.
I can hardly wait!
Mister Miracle continued by other hands -- Englehart & Rogers for issues #19-22, Gerber & Golden #23-25 -- but those issues are not included.
I discussed those issues (and more!) last year in THIS THREAD.
I worry for you, Jeff of Earth-J, putting post-it notes in your comics.
I appreciate the warning, but Post-It note glue is so weak I don't see that happening. In any case, it's been there for 15 years and that hasn't happened yet.
I just found my Hunger Dogs yesterday!
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