'Avengers: Endgame' discussion thread (with spoilers)

[Captain Comics]

So, are we ready to talk about this?

My first comment is that it didn't feel like a three-hour movie -- it felt like they packed four hours of story into it. I felt sometimes like I was drinking out of a firehose. Maybe it was because I loved just about everything. Here's my firehose of comments:

• There was certainly more characterization than I expected. Glad to see it.
• Loved Cap vs. Cap. (I write about it in this week's column.)
• Loved Professor Hulk (Ditto.)
• Surprised they chose to kill Black Widow, and disappointed that it was in exactly the same way as Gamora. I could have gone for a new approach to obtaining the Soul Stone -- I mean, surely the Avengers are more creative problem-solvers than Thanos. But I suspect that it will play into the Black Widow movie in some way, and establish a replacement Widow. (Either Yelena "Black Widow II" Belova or a re-cast of Natasha.)
• And my first thought when Widow was killed was "Damn. Should have been Hawkeye." I'm sorry, but Natasha was interesting, and Hawkeye is not. (Oh, how odd, he's a family man! Yes, odd for a superhero -- but not interesting.) Also, I loved Jeremy Renner in American Hustle, but man, is he unattractive. If nothing else, I'd rather look at Scarlett Johansson.
• But obviously Hawkeye's got to be around for his Disney+ series, so my wife and I both kinda knew how that scene was going to play out. I still thought we saw too much of him. I mean, he's boring.
• Speaking of my wife, she cried throughout. She said she hadn't cried at a movie since she was 10. There's a heckuva review!
• That unidentified teenager at Tony's funeral? That was the kid from Iron Man 2, all grown up.
• So now we know how Loki survived. Well, a version of Loki, since the (sometimes contradictory) description of time travel in this movie would indicate that they created an alternate timeline, and that timeline's Loki is the one that survived, and all we need for Hiddleston to star in his Disney+ series is to find a way for alt-Loki to get to our dimension. Piece o' cake.
• Speaking of which, Steve Rogers created an alternate timeline when he stayed with Peggy. That's where the shield came from. (Thanos destroyed the one from our dimension.) When Falcon says the shield feels like it belongs to someone else, Cap says "It doesn't" -- which could mean that it now belongs to Sam, or it could mean that it used to belong to alt-Sam in Cap's other dimension. (And how did our Cap get back here, anyway? Questions abound!)
• Some critics have complained that Thor taking Mjolnir from the past should have repercussions. That's a dog that doesn't hunt, because we saw it on the stand with Cap when he went back in time to replace the Infinity Gems. IOW, it as obvious he meant to return Mjolnir to its place in the timeline, too.
• I'd like to have seen that. Man, I'd watch a whole series of Chris Evans replacing stuff in time.
• Evans was so, so good in the role. Now does everyone see why Captain America has always meant more to me than just another superhero? It's not his strength or whatever -- it's his philosophy. He represents the best of men, writ large.
• The replacement Gamora is from before her time with the Guardians, which softened her considerably. She is essentially a villain again, like she currently is in the comics. She and her sister could cause some trouble. I suppose that's what Guardians 3 will be about. I don't know if that will include Thor, because Hemsworth's contract is up, too. I guess we'll see.
• Some critics have noted that the only significant, multiple-movie player that didn't appear in Endgame was Eric Selvig (Stellan Skarsgard). I beg to disagree. Since death is no barrier (with all the time traveling), we could have seen anybody, and we didn't see a number of multiple-movie characters such as Ronan, Odin, Sif, Darcy, Phil Coulson, Vision, the Nova Corps, Sharon Carter and probably a few more I'm not thinking of. Technically we didn't see Jane Foster, because the clips we saw of her were taken from Thor: The Dark World. (although Natalie Portman did do new dialogue that was dubbed in).
• Speaking of which, they sure did a deep dive on a number of characters. It was surprising to see Frigga, Jane Foster (sorta), Jasper Sitwell, Brock Rumlow, Jarvis and others.
• Speaking of Jarvis, that character, as played by James D'Arcy, has never been in the movies before. He was in Agent Carter. Is he the first Marvel TV character to make the leap into the Marvel movies?
• I really liked seeing Cap and Peggy dance. That was a running line all through Captain America: The First Avenger, and has been referenced a time or two since. They both earned that dance.
• Cap looking through the glass at Peggy, Tony meeting his father, Thor talking to his mother -- wow, they went all out trying to make us cry. And it worked.
• I laughed out loud when Cap repeated the elevator scene from Captain America: The Winter Soldier, and got the Stone without a fight by using the "Hail Hydra" line from Secret Empire. A callback to the comics, a clever ploy to avoid a fight, and a terrific thought experiment about how confused that left Jasper Sitwell. (Assuming that doesn't cause a separate timeline.)
• It's beautiful that Tony's last important words were the same as the ones that set this all in motion: "I am Iron Man." Evidently that was an ad lib in Iron Man! It sure carries weight now.
• Did Tony have to die? Yes. They established in a number of movies that no human could hold even ONE Infinity Gem, much less all six. Even the Hulk could barely survive it. Also, RDJ's contract was up, he has said on a number of occasions he wanted to leave on top and not as a ridiculous old man playing superhero, and he is already 54 (and starting to look it). Also, he made $75 million on Infinity War ALONE, and God knows how much he'll make for Endgame and how much he's already made on the other movies. He sure doesn't need the money.
• Which is one reason I don't think we'll see him as a hologram or AI program or something, as some have suggested. He would simply cost too much. If they do that, they'll probably re-cast with a lookalike/soundalike.
• WandaVision on Disney+ is supposed to be set in the '50s. That precedes Vision's death, but it also precedes his creation. (And Wanda's.) Given Wanda's power set, though, I guess anything is possible.
• Who will be the New Avengers? Captain Marvel and Captain America/Falcon seem like a lock, and I think it's been revealed that Spider-Man will be. Who else? We have a lot of options, despite the carnage: Ant-Man, Black Panther, Dr. Strange, Hawkeye, Hulk, Scarlet Witch, Thor, Valkyrie, Wasp and Winter Soldier leap to mind.
• Do you think they'll rename the Disney+ series Falcon and the Winter Soldier as Captain America and the Winter Soldier?

OK, I've wandered into mindless speculation territory. What did y'all think?

[ClarkKent_DC]

Drat! I started to write my response and lost it! I'll try writing again in another program and post it!

[Wandering Sensei: Moderator Man]

I loved this. It was a perfect capper to this phase, and it's clear that things will look different from here on out. That's a perfectly fine thing, and I look forward to it.

[Richard Mantle]

I think it quite telling that after so much anticipation there is very little discussion or debate being added to your opening statements Captain.

For once I think we all agree! 

You summed up all the good, all the intriguing and all the (slightly) annoying - and we ALL feel the same.

This movie delivered an almost unique state of affairs - we all loved it and we all agree we did!!

(IMHO!)

[ClarkKent_DC]

Let's try this again ...

I saw Avengers: Endgame last night two nights ago. Some very random and out-of-order thoughts:

• I had a straight-up nerdgasm when I saw Captain America wielding Thor’s hammer and the lightning.
• Even my wife knew it was a VERY big deal to have Captain America wielding Thor’s hammer and the lightning.
• I often complain that most movies are a half-hour too long. That’s because they don’t make the best use of their running time, and don’t strike the right balance between the exciting moments and the slower-paced moments. I do NOT have that complaint about Avengers: Endgame, even if it is three hours and two minutes long. Not a minute of it was wasted. Tying up threads and plot points from 22 movies, it could have been four hours long, but then that gets to the point where it should have been a TV series, not a movie.
• I appreciated that Endgame took time, where needed, to let moments breathe. Like Hawkeye grieving over the Black Widow. Or Tony Stark reconnecting with his father. Or Thor reconnecting with his mother. Or Steve Rogers catching sight of Sharon Carter in the past.
• I avoided several articles in the vein of “which Marvel Cinematic Universe movies are essential watching to understand Endgame.” A while back, there was an Internet petition going around that the filmmakers should make a trailer with Ant-Man’s fast-talking buddy Luís doing a recap of the 22 previous MCU movies, in his own inimitable way, to help viewers get up to speed. I would have gone for that, and it would have helped my wife, a lot.
• I also avoided spoilers and commentary beforehand (although I did read Entertainment Weekly’s coverage). I did see somebody make a crack that Endgame was made “for the fans”, as if that’s a bad thing. It is not. I submit that one of the biggest, fundamental flaws of most DC movies is that they try much too hard to not make them for the fans.
• One moment in Endgame made for the fans: Captain America vs. Captain America! Coolness on top of coolness!
• Another: during the climactic battle when the good guys are playing keepaway with the McGuffin the Infinity Gauntlet, we get Okoye, the Scarlet Witch, Shuri, Valkrie, Nebula, Gamora, Mantis, the Wasp and Captain Marvel line up(!) and let Spider-Man know, We got this. (Too bad the Scarlet Witch wasn’t there.)
• Although I avoided spoilers, I did glean that somebody makes a Noble Sacrifice. I did not glean that two somebodies make a Noble Sacrifice, nor that a third party fights with someone to be the one who makes the Noble Sacrifice.
• A genuine surprise: When it’s time to get the band back together, and we meet Bruce Banner – and he’s Intelligent Hulk! (I didn’t understand why he needed glasses, though.)
• A bigger genuine surprise: Still rounding up the band, and we meet Thor – and he’s got a beer belly and apparently hasn’t washed his hair or bathed in five years! Ye gods, he’s even wearing Crocs!
• I have to say, there were places where the CGI on the Hulk loo.ked a little cartoony.
• At Camp Lehigh in 1970, the moment on the elevator when the SHIELD agent notices Tony Stark and Steve Rogers, Stark steps forward to block her view – presumably to prevent her from recognizing Rogers’s very famous face. She reports them anyway, because Stark had a “hippie beard.” Silly me: I thought it was because Rogers was wearing an Army uniform with a major’s oak leaf embroidered on the shirt collar but captain’s bars on his cap.
• I have to admit, when Captain Marvel showed up during the climactic battle, I said, “Where have you been all day?” I know, I know – they set that up earlier, when she is in the hologram team meeting and says how she’s patrolling a thousand worlds experiencing the same chaos as Earth, planets that don’t have the Avengers. Rocket notes “Good point,” but I thought it was shades of those Gardner Fox Justice League of America stories where he put Superman and Green Lantern out of commission on page 2 because if they participated in the adventure the story would be over on page 3.
• I will squint my eyes and assume the funeral was for both Tony Stark and Natasha Romanov, although it wasn’t presented that way and few people in that scene seemed to be acting like it was.
• I loved loved loved that Captain America got his happy ending with Sharon Carter.
• We spoke to a friend who saw the movie a week ago. Our friend said there was applause. My wife told him there was too when we saw it, looked at me and said, “He started it.”

• And the lines:
• “Eat a salad.”
• “I can do this all day.”
• “Tell my family I love them.” “Tell them yourself.”
• “If I tell you what’s going to happen, it won’t.”
• “Did something go wrong, or did something go right?”

[Jeff of Earth-J]

I saw a commercial for this movie which claimed Avengers: Endgame had the best opening weekend of all time. How can they make such a claim? How far into the future did they look? I’m sure some film will earn more money sometime. It probably had only the best opening weekend of all time so far.

[ClarkKent_DC]

Some additional thoughts:

• I didn’t see it coming (until we got close to the end) that Tony Stark was one of the ones to make a Noble Sacrifice, even though they telegraphed it well enough. The vehement way he refused to participate at the start should have been signal enough. His refusal was part PTSD, part despair over having lost and lost badly, and part not wanting to lose the new life he built with his wife Pepper and daughter Morgan. It was noticeable that the movie spent a lot of time showing Stark alone with Morgan, and not with Stark, Pepper and Morgan together. I don’t think we ever did see all three of them together in a scene.
• The movie also drove home the bond between Stark and Peter Parker. One of the better moves the Marvel Cinematic Universe made was setting those two up as surrogate father and son.
• Captain America was noticeably more foul-mouthed in this outing than before, but then, a lot of bad things had happened, and war changes people.
• It shows how well superhero movies have arrived that you can have Oscar-winning actors in walk-on roles (Robert Redford) or as glorified extras (Marisa Tomei, William Hurt). Ye gods, in the funeral scene, you had Oscar winners (Gwyneth Paltrow) and Oscar nominees (Angela Bassett) just standing around! (But then, it’s worth it to have Angela Bassett standing around, looking regal. She does it so well.)
• My friend who saw Endgame before I did said he was expecting a moment where Thor got his act together, summoned the lightning, and was restored to his magnficent, god-like physique with six-pack abs, and was a little surprised it didn’t happen. Yeah, I was too, but I’m okay it didn’t happen that way. I bet Chris Hemsworth was glad he didn’t have to live on boiled chicken and oatmeal for six months and spend four hours a day in the gym, too.

ClarkKent_DC said:

• Another: during the climactic battle when the good guys are playing keepaway with the McGuffin the Infinity Gauntlet, we get Okoye, the Scarlet Witch, Shuri, Valkrie, Nebula, Gamora, Mantis, the Wasp and Captain Marvel line up(!) and let Spider-Man know, We got this. (Too bad the Scarlet Witch wasn’t there.)

Forgot to mention Pepper Potts was in that lineup.

[ClarkKent_DC]

Captain Comics said:

• Surprised they chose to kill Black Widow, and disappointed that it was in exactly the same way as Gamora. I could have gone for a new approach to obtaining the Soul Stone -- I mean, surely the Avengers are more creative problem-solvers than Thanos. But I suspect that it will play into the Black Widow movie in some way, and establish a replacement Widow. (Either Yelena "Black Widow II" Belova or a re-cast of Natasha.)
• And my first thought when Widow was killed was "Damn. Should have been Hawkeye." I'm sorry, but Natasha was interesting, and Hawkeye is not. (Oh, how odd, he's a family man! Yes, odd for a superhero -- but not interesting.) Also, I loved Jeremy Renner in American Hustle, but man, is he unattractive. If nothing else, I'd rather look at Scarlett Johansson.

Since I have seen the movie I can now look at spoilers and commentary. Like this piece from The Washington Post:  "This ‘Avengers: Endgame’ Battle Scene Captures Marvel's Tricky Relationship With Female Heroes." The writer doesn't use the term, but she argues that the Black Widow's demise was a case of Women in Refrigerators:

Sonia Rao said:

Black Widow doesn’t join the #girlgang because she can’t. When she and Hawkeye (Jeremy Renner) travel back in time to retrieve the Soul Stone from the planet Vormir, they learn, as Thanos and Gamora did in “Infinity War,” that one of them must sacrifice their life in exchange for the stone.

They first duke it out verbally, with Hawkeye arguing that he doesn’t deserve to live because of the murder rampage he carried out as Ronin after Thanos’s snap killed his wife and children. But when the tussle eventually leaves the pair dangling off the edge of a cliff, Black Widow implores her friend to let her go. She says the Avengers are the only family she’s ever had, so she owes it to them to do “whatever it takes.” (There’s also an implication that Hawkeye should go on living because he has a family — a bit icky, given the “Age of Ultron” revelation that Black Widow is unable to bear children.)

Black Widow spends the first half of “Endgame” establishing herself as an essential member of the team; she is the only one who remains steadfast in her mission to reverse the damage Thanos did, a display of grief that develops the character as other MCU films have only briefly done through glimpses of her former assassin life. But in death, she is once again reduced to a secondary character. The Avengers grieve Black Widow, but the loss primarily serves to motivate them, whereas other endings — such as the death of Iron Man (Robert Downey Jr.), who also sacrifices himself, or Captain America (Chris Evans) getting to grow old with the love of his life — carry an emotional heft that satisfyingly completes the character arcs.

[Captain Comics]

Loved your comments, CK!

CK: The writer doesn't use the term, but she argues that the Black Widow's demise was a case of Women in Refrigerators:

Yeah, killing off the Widow has some WIF overtones. And no funeral? We got two brief convos about her death (between Hulk and Cap, and Wanda and Clint) where I don't even remember her name being specifically mentioned.

CK: A while back, there was an Internet petition going around that the filmmakers should make a trailer with Ant-Man’s fast-talking buddy Luís doing a recap of the 22 previous MCU movies, in his own inimitable way, to help viewers get up to speed.

I would pay good, cash money to see that.

CK: we get Okoye, the Scarlet Witch, Shuri, Valkrie, Nebula, Gamora, Mantis, the Wasp and Captain Marvel line up(!) and let Spider-Man know, We got this.

That shot felt forced and pandering to me, but I would love to see the next Avengers movie take advantage of all those women. The movie doesn't have to be A-Force, but if the team was mostly female then most scenes would naturally be mostly (or all female). The next "Big 6" could be Captain Marvel, Wasp, Scarlet Witch, Shuri (in Panther armor), Valkyrie and Cap/Falcon. Oh, and Ant-Man as comedy relief/mascot.

Rescue is also available, but Paltrow says she's done, so probably not. Jessica Jones, Medusa and Colleen Wing/Misty Knight are established, although they're Marvel TV and not Marvel Films. Still, a mostly-female Avengers team could form organically, at least for a little while.

CK: When it’s time to get the band back together, and we meet Bruce Banner – and he’s Intelligent Hulk! (I didn’t understand why he needed glasses, though.)

I wondered about that, too. But as a guy heading for cataract surgery, I'm well aware that the causes of presbyopia, myopia and astigmatism have nothing to do with how strong you are. So I have rationalized that he needs readers because having big, strong eyes doesn't mean you can read tiny print well.

CK: but I thought it was shades of those Gardner Fox Justice League of America stories where he put Superman and Green Lantern out of commission on page 2 because if they participated in the adventure the story would be over on page 3.

They also sidelined the Hulk for most of the final big battle so that the Cap, Shellhead and Thor could have their (last) moment in the sun together.

CK: We spoke to a friend who saw the movie a week ago. Our friend said there was applause.

There was tons of applause at my showing, the first Saturday night (sold out, of course). I missed a lot of dialogue as a result, but I didn't mind.

CK: “I can do this all day.”

And then current Cap's exasperated response: "I know."

CK: It was noticeable that the movie spent a lot of time showing Stark alone with Morgan, and not with Stark, Pepper and Morgan together. I don’t think we ever did see all three of them together in a scene.

It was so noticeable that I noticed it. There were so many opportunities for Pepper to show up while Morgan and Tony were fooling around, and then she didn't, I began to think her contract was up and she wasn't going to show. Then she did, but without Morgan. Then Morgan and Pepper are together at the end, but Tony is dead. WTF?

CK: The movie also drove home the bond between Stark and Peter Parker. One of the better moves the Marvel Cinematic Universe made was setting those two up as surrogate father and son.

It seems to me that in the MCU, Tony is a stand-in for Uncle Ben.

I don't know if this is anything official, but has anyone else noticed that there are two separate Spidey supporting casts since the MCU/Sony deal? The Andrew Garfield/Tobey Maguire movies had J. Jonah Jameson, Harry Osborn, Mary Jane and Gwen Stacy, but none of those characters are in the MCU/Sony movies, which have instead Liz Allan, Flash Thompson, and some new characters. The villains from the Garfield/Maguire movies also no-shows at Marvel. The only holdover is Aunt May, who is sort of unavoidable. Does anyone know why this is? Is it part of the contract? Or is it just a way to make a clean reboot?

CK: My friend who saw Endgame before I did said he was expecting a moment where Thor got his act together, summoned the lightning, and was restored to his magnficent, god-like physique with six-pack abs, and was a little surprised it didn’t happen. 

That thought flashed across my mind early, but I dismissed it -- it would be too cheap an out, and insulting to people struggling with weight. And the hammer doesn't say anything about "six-pack abs," just "the power of Thor." But when he did summon the lightning, he did suddenly have better grooming -- his hair and beard suddenly had braids!

[Gene Phillips]

There were assorted things I liked about the movie, but on the whole it's much weaker than INFINITY WAR. I think it's because the people behind the cameras knew that they were going to make a buttload of money no matter what they did, so they felt free to drop a lot of major plotlines (why was the Hulk unwilling to come out of Banner, how did the surviving Asgardians end up on Earth). 

I've always opposed the concept of "women in refrigerators" because as stated by Gail Simone it ignores context. I can see women readers getting cheesed off by badly executed deaths or incoherent storylines. But WIR lumps together every story that involves "dis-empowerment" of women, so that even a good story like the original Phoenix continuity would fall under its aegis.

Now, I'm with the Captain in saying that on the emotional level, I'd rather have seen Hawkeye buy it than the Widow. The script puts out there that Hawkeye essentially becomes a version of the Punisher, randomly murdering criminals, and so there's some justification for him to want to pay for his (vigilante) crimes and sacrifice himself. Now, MAYBE a skillful script could have convinced me that BW had more gore on her conscience, and therefore she thought she deserved termination more-- but the movie didn't sell that. An alternate way to go would've been to establish that she had a relationship with Hawkeye's family and wanted them to survive, since BW could never have one of her own. But I don't think that was even suggested.

It's funny, though, that anyone would bring up WIR, since ENDGAME is so rife with shout-outs to feminine empowerment. Maybe that's the real reason they shafted BW: they had to make way for crude feminist icons like Valkyrie and the "Marvel that dare not speak her superhero name."

Did not like Fat Thor or Professor Hulk.

[Wandering Sensei: Moderator Man]

A.) Who is the "Marvel that dare not speak her superhero name"? I must have missed out on that one.

B.) I was fine with Fat Thor, but I LOVED Professor Hulk!

Gene Phillips said:

"Marvel that dare not speak her superhero name."

Did not like Fat Thor or Professor Hulk.