I thought I'd start a thread for all things LSH-related.
Now, pardon me while I post the middle of a conversation from somewhere else...
from the KLORDNY 2020 yahoo group:
Rob Rundle wrote:
"I disagree (with janarrah, not with Henry) as strongly as it's possible to disagree."
That sounds like something from a Monty Python sketch, for some reason... : )
"The decline in popularity coincided with the decline in quality of the book. Superboy's presence or absence was irrelevant."
I see it this way. The longer Paul Levitz was on the book, the less "teen" and the more "adult" the LEGION became. So, EVENTUALLY, we should have seen SUPERMAN show up. Preferably drawn by Curt Swan (heehee).
Paul Levitz said he felt burnt out. Was it "having" to toe the line with the Post-CRISIS/New DCU Superman continuity? Did he really "HAVE" to kill Superboy? Yes or no, he said that it was only Keith Giffen's return that recharged him. No doubt, Levitz & Giffen were plotting the book TOGETHER, just as Claremont & Byrne on X-MEN, and Michelinie & Layton on IRON MAN (a rare case where the INKER was writing, not the penciller).
I loved Keith's 1st return issue (#50). It was such a mind-blower, both visually and story-wise. I was rather shocked when, in a later interview, Keith Giffen revealed that the entire issue was the victim of multiple technical problems up the wazoo.
What I didn't "get" was how, starting with Keith's 2ND new issue, all the figure-drawing began to distort. Especially, people's faces all got "FAT". Mike DeCarlo had done a sub-average job on just about every penciller on LEGION up to then (and absolutely MURDERED Jim Aparo on BATMAN). But Giffen-DeCarlo, at least at first, looked like Kirby-Stone. So after all his "ugly" experiments, Keith had finally decided to go back to "doing" Jack Kirby again. I just STILL don't understand those FAT faces.
When Al Gordon took over inks, there was a noticeable drop in quality. Many disagree with this view, but it's how I feel. But then you had the last 4 issues (Giffen-DeCarlo again, I think), where, it's clear, Keith was no longer doing pencils, but the roughest of rough layouts, and DeCarlo was not up to snuff. It's like the example of Kirby-Royer I once saw where Royer did full pencils over a very rough Kirby layout. Not the same as sharp inks over finished pencils. (This happened once with John & Sal Buscema, TOO!! See CAPTAIN AMERICA #115.) Only, not one-tenth as good.
However, the moment "Five Years Later" started, Giffen-Gordon began to look like Kirby-Bell (Roussos). I'M NOT KIDDING. CRAP. Crap layouts, crap pencils, crap inks. The colors were nothing to brag about either... until after that 3-month shake-down (around issues #9-11) when they switched over to COMPUTER coloring. Suddenly, the coloring was the ONLY competent work in the entire book. It's no wonder Tom McCraw got later promoted to writer (not that that REALLY makes much sense, but, you know what I mean.)
Kevin Hawkins (who joined KLORDNY the same time I did) was the one who told me at length about Mike Carlin's behind-the-scenes B.S. It's strange, as editor, he did such an (apparently) WONDERFUL and consistent job on the SUPERMAN titles. Jerry Ordway, George Perez, Dan Jurgens, Dennis Janke, Roger Stern, etc. etc... But it seems everything else he touched, directly or otherwise, turned to crap. And the moment he left SUPERMAN (replaced by Joey "Spider-Clone Saga" Cavalieri), SUPERMAN went COMPLETELY TO HELL. (Not all at once... but it was definitely a prolonged downward spiral.)
Kevin also is one of those people who LOVED "Five Years Later", particularly for the Ayla-Vi relationship. Maybe I could have liked that, too, if both the writing AND art hadn't been CRAP.
I feel some series should be what they are, concept-wise. LEGION, like STAR TREK, is about a "utopian" future. You can tell endless stories where ytou threaten that utopia. You SHOULD NOT, EVER tell one where it's gone TO HELL. Even if you plan (ALLGEDLY) to "bring it back" at the end of a 3-YEAR storyline. (Blowing up the Earth is not what I'd consider a "proper" ending to such a story. It's more like giving your fans the finger.)
HOWEVER, and I think Kevin will confirm this... I've been open enough to admit that, IF-- and this is a very big if-- IF the book had been written and drawn properly, up to the standards of the VERY BEST issues-- such a story could have been interesting. You'd just have needed someone like Dave Gibbons on art (or Stuart Immonen). You'd need TIGHT editing from an experienced editor, and you'd need CONSISTENT creative teams on every single issue, all working toward the same end.
The last thing you need is to try to introduce your audience to a whole new playing field-- and then, before they even have the slightest grasp of what's going on-- COMPLETELY CHANGE the field AGAIN, 6 issues in.
It's also a very bad sign when you have FILL-INS that are much better-written & drawn than the "regular" ongoing storyline. (Matter-Eater Lad, Khund War, etc.)
"However, I agree with Henry that his presence in history and continuity should have been maintained, as Paul Levitz tried to do, and that Mike Carlin's ego can be blamed for a lot of the Legion's problems (as a lot of other crap at DC, come to that)."
Apart from Superboy not being a member anymore, Superboy was actually DEAD by the time Carlin pulled his S***. So what was the point? I've heard Keith (or was it Tom & Mary? Both?) wanted to do "flashback" stories featuring Superboy, Carlin got wind of it, and put a stop to it. WHY?
SOME series need and deserve to exist in their own corner of the universe, or even in their own universe, separate from anything else a company publishes. I feel LEGION is one of those. Even the most die-hard fans I've seen online have been critical of the recent Paul Levitz work, because his latest run, while SIMILAR to Earth-1, was never QUITE Earth-1. I think we DESERVE Earth-1... or NOTHING ELSE.
After all, they don't have to work it in to fit the "Post-Crisis" New DCU anymore... DO they? (Now that they've STOPPED doing that universe... haven't they?)
You need to be a member of Captain Comics to add comments!
Replies
Just posted at the Comic Book Plus board...
I forget how many years it's been now, but... some time back I had a dream of how I would "revive" and handle the original LSH if I somehow found myself in the position of editor. This was years before the "real" Legion (or is it?) was brought back.
As much as I've enjoyed (or been frustrated with) soap-opera storytelling over the years, I find the focus on soap almost to the exclusion of well-structured stories has become tiresome. One of the best series of the last 20 years (in my view) was SANDMAN MYSTERY THEATRE. Every story was a 4-part epic-- kinda like DOCTOR WHO in its prime. Stories, and story structure, was paramount, but, you DID manage to have "continuity" and "character development". They just never let it get in the way of the more IMPORTANT stuff.
I envisioned a series where you could have rotating writers or artists, each doing a complete story, all under the TIGHT control of a single-minded editor. No one person's ego would be allowed to derail things, as the main focus would be maintaining the integrity of the series as a whole.
I actually envisioned getting some of the "classic" artists to come back for at least one story each (4 issues). I would have started with whoever was the earliest that was still around. I had Jim Mooney in mind. You can see how far back I was thinking of this... when did he pass away? I'd have followed him up with Dave Cockrum (ditto), Mike Grell, Jim Sherman, Jimmy Janes... about the only guys I would probably avoid would be Joe Staton (too cartoony), Pat Broderick (his art has continued to get worse year by year) and-- frankly-- Keith Giffen (he performed WAY too much DAMAGE to the series over too many years-- enough is enough!!). I'd also love to see storylines illustrated by Steve Lightle, Dan Jurgens, Greg LaRocque, Dave Gibbons, Stuart Immonen, Chris Sprouse...
Mind you, I could also see getting some new artists involved as well. But maybe only every other story. I'd still like the focus to be on "classic" artists-- 4 issues at a shot. This way nobody gets burned out.
I would also pick up exactly where the series left off just before CRISIS ON INFINITE EARTHS. Yes, I've gotten so disgusted with all the changes, that I'd much prefer that NOTHING that happened after CRISIS be included in the history at all. After all-- what we saw in the Levitz series post-CRISIS was not "Earth-1"-- it was "the new DCU".
This way, you could not only have Superboy-- and eventually-- SuperMAN-- as a member-- you could also have Supergirl-- THE REAL ONE-- still alive. (That was actually something Paul Levitz wanted to do, except it was nixed by the powers-that-be at the time.)
My friend (and fellow Klordny member) Kevin Hawkins loves to fantasize and come up with ideas of this sort for all kinds of comics, TV shows and movies... well, this one was mine!
I stepped into the world of Legion during the Five Years Later era. I thought the layouts were baffling, the storytelling was confusing, and the art was muddy.
But I loved it.
It reminded me of being at a party in college (I was on college at the time). It was crowded, you found yourself seeing someone's eyeball close-up, and it was noisy. But you had to figure out what was going on, and it was like a puzzle. And issue after issue, you could tell a good story was going down even if you couldn't figure out what it was, exactly.
That's what I love. I love coming into a story in the middle and trying to piece together what's going on. And these people were close-ups of people who all called each other by their first names instead of their super-hero names. And there was no internet! So by reading the issues and the text pieces in the back, it all started to gradually make sense.
I guess I was intrigued by a club that I wasn't a part of, but could be if I tried hard enough.
Here are some of the issues I remember: The one where Sun Boy kills himself; so well-told. The one where Shvaughn Erin reveals herself to actually be Sean Erin, a boy who has been taking drugs to be female so as to have a relationship with Element Kid. The issue where Earth is destroyed, creating "New Earth". I remember the next issue after that was the first time I ever saw the artwork of Stuart Immonen. Before that, we had been witness to the work of Keith Giffen, Jason Pearson, Colleen Doran, Chris Sprouse...
I loved that book.
I started reading the Legion long before the 5-year gap, Jeff... but my reaction to that run was very similar to what you describe. The stories still needed decoding, but with all the reading I'd done, I had the key. And even though bad things happened to characters I loved (poor Blok!), I loved that run so much.
That run also had one of my favorite moments: Darkseid stopped trying to kill everyone! After that I didn't want to see him again. The only time I enjoyed seeing him in a comic.
One of my favorite runs too that began when I was out of comics. I caught up quickly buying cheap back issues though.
I thought Kent Shakspeare was a great addition with a wonderful Silver Age origin. He got his powers from a virus. I always envisioned Brainiac 5 telling him,"I can *cure* you but you'll lose your superpowers."