Hey, gang!
I'm working on an essay for a someone else's book, my brief being villains and their relationships with heroes. I've got my general outline, but I'm looking for specifics. Does anyone remember any scenes or monologues where a villain specifically states his relationship to his or her arch-foe? Naturally, I'm leaning toward the majors -- Lex Luthor, Joker, Brainiac, Dr. Doom, Red Skull, etc. -- but any example will help.
For example, Luthor has often said that if it wasn't for Superman, he'd have cured cancer or otherwise done great and noble things. I know he's said if often, but it would save me research time if someone could point to an example. Also, I can also remember Superman pointing out an occasion -- alternate history? something like that -- where Luthor had an opportunity to do those things, because Superman wasn't around, and he didn't do them. So essentially I'm looking for anything that sheds light on the Superman-Luthor dynamic.
I'm already using "Emperor Doom," a story where Doom conquers the world, but gets bored, and frees (I think) Magneto, Beast and Captain America to fight him. By inference, he isn't as interested in victory as he is in the contest. Anyone know any more examples where a villain's spoken goal isn't really what he or she wants?
But mainly I'm interested in the hero-villain dynamic. Short of looking through every appearance of Doom, does anyone remember a telling example of what his relationship with Reed Richards is (or what he thinks his relationship with Richards is)?
The Joker is more problematic, but I'll certainly mention the homophobic element, underscored by "Batman, darling" in Dark Knight Returns. Any more of those would be helpful, but they usually don't go that far in "mainstream" Bat-titles, so anything where Joker mentions that he's more interested in fighting Batman than getting money -- or anyone else says it -- would be helpful.
That should probably give everyone an idea of what I'm looking for. In general I'm kinda going with the idea that much as a person's enemies define him, a villain's hero defines the villain as well. But I'm willing to be surprised and have my opinions changed by a general discussion of hero-villain dynamics.
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In Spider-man's Tangled Web #9 from 2002 three villains (Kraven's son, Vulture and a mystery man) gather a bar for villains. The three discuss their relationship with Spider-man and recent run-ins. Kraven jr and Vulture discuss how they tire of Spider-man's jokes when they fight. The third says he doesn't get the jokey side of Spider-man when they fight. He then tells how he killed Spider-man's girlfriend. It is revealed to be Norman Osborn. Right there their dynamic is defined by a much more personal means. Spidey is all business with Osborn.
In the all new Ultimate Spider-man #1 there's an intro with Norman Osborn speaking to a subordinate. In it he claims to have "created" Spider-man and more or less wants to make another.
In Flash 19, the Rogues confess to Wally that they thought Barry's main power was distracting them from doing more villainous (and competent) things with their powers. They were too caught up in trying to defeat him that they never really applied themselves otherwise.
Regarding Emperor Doom, a similar idea was used earlier in Super-Villain Team-Up #14 and Champions #16. Magneto proposed an alliance, but Doom told him he'd already taken over the world by releasing a mind-control gas that made people his slaves. He gave Magneto a chance to fight him.
There's a bit in Fantastic Four #6 where Sue contrasts the motives of Doom and Namor. In #86 Doom tells Hauptmann he'd shatter the planet to get the FF, but in #87 he lets the guys go to save the artwork Hauptmann is about to destroy. (I think some writers think Doom has an honourable side, others that he's a complete bastard. Despite this sequence, I think the Lee Doom is of the latter description.) In Fantastic Four #197 there's a bit where Alicia, whom Doom is forcing to sculpt his statue, feels his face and says she senses he's a sensitive and good man who's gotten twisted. (There's an image of the original art of the page here.) In #200 when Reed faces off against Doom solo he says "At long last! It's the two of us...as it was always meant to be." Doom responds "Indeed. So you believe in destiny even as I do..." and then recounts his origin. He ends by blaming everything on Reed.
In Batman #251 the Joker has a chance to kill Batman but decides not to because his successful attack on him was a result of pure luck and not his use of (from memory) "the divine gift men call madness".
Beautia explained how Sivana became evil in Whiz Comics #15. The Marvel Family #50 had a story called "Sivana's Good Inventions" in which Captain Marvel learned Sivana had created many good inventions that he was ashamed of. The story was reprinted in Shazam #15.
In "The Luthor Nobody Knows!" from Superman #292, one of Elliot S. Maggin's stories, the young Luthor is portrayed in a flashback as feeling deserted by everyone. In the present day when Superman is asked if hate was all Luthor ever had, he responds that it's not, but it's all he has left. In Maggin's Superman novel, which is largely about Luthor, there's a line about it being possible that when he has his lab accident it was possible he was on his way to going out of control anyway. In Superman #416, which has two linked stories by Maggin, we learn that Luthor will ultimately be cured of his criminal tendencies by a kid whom he saves in that issue.
The New Adventures of Superboy #38 was part of a crossover with Superman in which the minds of Superman and Superboy were switched. In the Superboy issue Superman-in-Superboy's-body loses his temper thinking about all the evil things Luthor is going to do and badly beats him.
The first Ultraa stories played with the idea that the appearance of one superhero on an Earth will bring onto the scene other superbeings, including villains. The stories appeared in Justice League of America #153 and #158.
The remodelled Brainiac in Action Comics ##544-546 believed Superman was his appointed destroyer.
I never read Emperor Doom, but I do kinda/sorta remenber that Lex Luthor/cure for cancer thing. It's like when, a couple of years ago, one of use was trying to remember the scene in which an alien race checked their records and discovered Earth had beaten off Galactus and they pulled back, but we had a hard time placing it at the time. (It's X-Men #105 so that no one reading this loses sleep.) I seem to recall it was during a time when Superman had been gone for a time (His exile to space? His death?), after which Superman pointed out Luthor hadn't accomplished much during his abscence. I'll give it some thought. what's our deadline?
In the meantime, I'll remind you of "Why J. Jonah Jameson really hates Spider-Man!" from issue #10.
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