Over on  Newsarama, Matt Fraction said, "Sometimes I think Defenders was doomed the minute the word Defenders was put on the cover."  I'm curious what other people think.  Is the Defenders a title doomed to fail or is it just that Matt Fraction's Defenders were doomed to fail?

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George, don't have a heart attack.  I agree with you on this one.

 

      Al

George Poague said:

Border Mutt said: "Maybe if Dr. Strange had been replaced by the likes of Iron Man or even a reformed super-villain like the Sandman, reader interest would have stayed high."

The disdain that so many fanboys have for Dr. Strange is really disconcerting. Strange used to be a cult favorite; if you read his comics, you were among the fan elite. Now he just gets bad-mouthed. Maybe the disdain is because he doesn't beat up people with his fists, or slice them up with metal claws, which means he's not "cool."

Dr. Strange was one of the few mature adults among comic book characters. This may help explain why he was such a favorite among female readers in the '60s, '70s and '80s.

Maybe Clea meant that Doc was good at taking out the trash?

 

     Al

George Poague said:

It's pretty obvious what Strange and Clea were doing off-panel in those '70s comics. Maybe the Code enforcers were looking the other way.

When a story ends with Clea telling Strange, "There are needs a woman has ... that only a man can fulfill," I don't think she was talking about holding hands.

You know, Allen, when I looked at this again, I realized... Jim Starlin did NOT draw a "pretty" Clea AT ALL. SEXY-AS-HELL, yes.  "Pretty"? No.  Oh well. Sometimes you take what you can get.

His Valkyrie, though... she WAS both!

I distinctly remember a story back when Gene Colan was illustrating Dr Strange that involved Doc and Clea going back in time to the American Revolution or shortly thereafter. It was made very clear that Clea had sex with Benjamin Franklin! Kind of a slap to Dr Strange, but this is something that Franklin would have jumped at.

George Poague said:

It's pretty obvious what Strange and Clea were doing off-panel in those '70s comics. Maybe the Code enforcers were looking the other way.

When a story ends with Clea telling Strange, "There are needs a woman has ... that only a man can fulfill," I don't think she was talking about holding hands.

...I think the Phantom met Ben Franklin at least twice , one in the Don Newton-written & drawn story that was the last issue of the Charlton THE PHANTOM  book about the time of Gerber's Defenders ! :-)

I was always a Charlton fan.  Lots of junk, but the occasional gem.  They were the little company that (sometimes) could, thanks to the professionalism of the talent that came through their doors.  It made up for the indifference of the publisher.

        Allen Smith

Emerkeith Davyjack said:

...I think the Phantom met Ben Franklin at least twice , one in the Don Newton-written & drawn story that was the last issue of the Charlton THE PHANTOM  book about the time of Gerber's Defenders ! :-)

Emerkeith Davyjack:

"...I think the Phantom met Ben Franklin at least twice , one in the Don Newton-written & drawn story that was the last issue of the Charlton THE PHANTOM  book about the time of Gerber's Defenders ! :-)"

I'd love to read some of those one of these days. Don Newton became one of my all-time fave Batman artists, but these days, I'd be more interested in reading THE PHANTOM. It's interesting that both Jim Aparo & Don Newton got their start doing THE PHANTOM, then switched to BATMAN because DC paid so much more than Charlton.  In a better world, either of those guys could have stayed on THE PHANTOM and made as much money.

George Poague:

"Now that this thread (like many others) has been taken over by people who have an obsessive need to bash Stan Lee -- and to praise Jack Kirby as an infallible god --- I'm outta here. These Stan vs. Jack arguments are like arguments over politics or religion. Most people made up their minds long ago, and they're not going to be swayed. Further talk on this subject is a waste of time.""

Well-- for at least the 2nd time, GEORGE LIED. Not surprising, given his role model.

I keep trying to focus on my love of comics, but EVERY TIME I say something that GEORGE disagrees with, he makes PERSONAL ATTACKS against me. Even when I don't mention his hero. At all.  PERSONAL ATTACK after PERSONAL ATTACK, while the moderator is nowhere to be seen.

People like GEORGE make it very difficult to stay polite. But I'm doing my best.

SUPER-VILLAIN TEAM-UP

 



George Poague said:

Tim Boo Ba said: "It is more a case of without Stan adding his cornball humour/tragedy dimension to their basic plots, Kirby (and Ditko?)  flourished."

Yeah, they flourished so much that Creeper, Hawk and Dove, Forever People, New Gods and OMAC were rather quickly cancelled.

 

Sorry, I'm not seeing the connection here.

 



Kirk G said:

I think it's more complex than that.
DC jumped at the chance to hire powerhouse Jack Kirby away from their competition.
And some at DC, without doing an analysis of why Marvel was becoming so successful with the fans, assumed that by transplanting their star, they would have instant hits that outsold everything else. It didn't happen.
And after a year, some suits were looking at numbers and still not seeing what they wanted to see across the line.
Given enough time, and staying the course with some of those books, the Fourth World and other Kirby products might have grown a larger, more diverse fan base.

I think that this is possible. it had, after all, happened before with Kirby creations and co-creations. The Challengers of the Unknown had only just been cancelled at DC. The FF and other Kirby co-creations for Marvel took about half a decade to outsell DC's non-Super/Bat titles.  


But some wanted a "just add Kirby" hit, and I think that would have taken time.

Correctimundo.



George Poague said:

Border Mutt said: "Maybe if Dr. Strange had been replaced by the likes of Iron Man or even a reformed super-villain like the Sandman, reader interest would have stayed high."

The disdain that so many fanboys have for Dr. Strange is really disconcerting. Strange used to be a cult favorite; if you read his comics, you were among the fan elite. Now he just gets bad-mouthed. Maybe the disdain is because he doesn't beat up people with his fists, or slice them up with metal claws, which means he's not "cool."

Dr. Strange was one of the few mature adults among comic book characters. This may help explain why he was such a favorite among female readers in the '60s, '70s and '80s.

Very good points, George.

I thought before reading your post that the problem with Dr. Strange was that he was too powerful to be in The Defenders. I now think that he would work on the basis that he is attempting to control a monster, a Norse demi-goddess and a rich kid. Not to mention a monarch whom I once described as 'an arrogant dorkmeister.' 

No wonder those comics were so good. Steve Gerber had something interesting to play with.



George Poague said:

It's pretty obvious what Strange and Clea were doing off-panel in those '70s comics. Maybe the Code enforcers were looking the other way.

When a story ends with Clea telling Strange, "There are needs a woman has ... that only a man can fulfill," I don't think she was talking about holding hands.

No, she was talking about being his... disciple.

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