Issue #1
- Barry Allen describes himself as "retired". Is this some development that I missed, or is this meant to be "future" Barry?
- Barry seems to have a large collections of "trophies" from various heroes and villlains. I wonder how he obtained all that stuff?
- Who's the World Forger? Never heard of them. Also never heard that Perpetua was the Monitors' mother.
- Never heard of the Spectre's real name being "Aztar".
- "Ktar Deathbringer and Shrra served an ancient force of evil before being redeemed and reincarnated..." Do we know who this {force of evil" was?
- "Merlin anointed a second Shining Knight"... This appears to be the Shining Knight from Morrison's Seven Soldiers, but if I'm recalling correctly, she was supposed to be from ancient, pre-Arthurian times, so this would appear to be an alteration of her backstory.
- Never heard of these "Demon Knights".
- No sign of the Trigger Twins on the "western Heroes" page.
- No sign of the original Red Tornado, either.
- So Hippolyta is still the Golden Age Wonder Woman? Somehow, I thought that they'd re-written it so that Diana was back in nthe Golden Age again.
- Why is the Invisible Hood being called "Invisible Justice" now?
- Also never heard of this "Justice Alliance" consisting of Captain Comet, Prine Ra-Man, Automan, Tiger-Man and Congorilla.
- Putting Niles Caulder, Will Magnus, Martin Stein and Simon Stagg together as "The Supermen Project" feels like they're trying to create a DC version of the guys who ended up creating Adam Warlock.
Otherwise, most of the rest of the stuff is as I remembered it.
Replies
Ooh, thanks for doing this!
Barry Allen describes himself as "retired". Is this some developme nt that I missed, or isthis meant to be "future" Barry?
Barry lost his powers in Absolute Power, and as far as I know, that is still the case.
Barry seems to have a large collections of "trophies" from various heroes and villlains. I wonder how he obtained all that stuff?
I don’t know the how, but the why is that he was established as a comic book fanboy sometime in the Bronze Age. It makes sense that he’d be a collector!
Who's the World Forger? Never heard of them. Also never heard that Perpetua was the Monitors' mother.
He debuted in Dark Metal. He’s the Anti-Monitor’s older brother, a son (one of three) of Perpetua, and the master of Barbatos. I don’t remember much more than that.
Never heard of the Spectre's real name being "Aztar".
First I’ve heard of it! Might be another Dark Metal thing. Or maybe Mark Waid just made it up.
"Ktar Deathbringer and Shrra served an ancient force of evil before being redeemed and reincarnated..." Do we know who this {force of evil" was?
Not me. But I wonder, given the phonetic similarity of Ktar and Shrra to Katar and Shayera, who are incarnations of Khufu and Chay-Ara and Carter and Shiera, if isn’t another incarnation of Hath-Set. (And, if I read the subtext right, Ktar and the force of evil would mirror Horus vs. Set, i.e., they would be gods of Earth as well as Thanagar.) It's hard for me to think about Hawkman without getting a headache. Anybody know?
"Merlin anointed a second Shining Knight"... This appears to be the Shining Knight from Morrison's Seven Soldiers, but if I'm recalling correctly, she was supposed to be from ancient, pre-Arthurian times, so this would appear to be an alteration of her backstory.
You already know more than I do. Since Morrison’s Seven Soldiers were all alterations of what I knew and most of them died anyway, they have faded from my memory. I suppose I’ll have to re-read Final Crisis one of these days, but it was so depressing I’m in no hurry.
Never one of these "Demon Knights".
OIC. There was a Demon Knights title in the New 52, which featured Etrigan, Lucifer, Madame Xanadu, Shining Knight (“Sir Ystin”), “The Horsewoman,” Al Jabr (the guy who invented algebra, which was named for him) and Exoristos, implied to be an Amazon. DC sent me a TPB but I don’t know if I read it and don’t remember any of it if I did. But a Shining Knight was part of that team. The New 52 was erased by Doomsday Clock, but I guess Waid is cherry-picking the parts he wants.
No sign of the Trigger Twins on the "western Heroes" page.
Sad!
No sign of the original Red Tornado, either.
Sadder! Well, not really. I’m not a Ma Hunkel booster. If she’s relegated to being a neighborhood personality (as she actually was in “Scribbly”) that’d be OK with me. Roy Thomas says she wasn’t a JSA member, and that’s good enough for me.
So Hippolyta is still the Golden Age Wonder Woman? Somehow, I thought that they'd re-written it so that Diana was back in the Golden Age again.
So did I. But it’s OK by me — if they remove the time travel bit. It still baffles me that John Byrne tried to establish that today’s Hippolyta (well, before she was dead) went back in time to be in the JSA. That was an unnecessary complication, since Hippolyta was ALIVE during World War II, and her contemporary self could have been in the JSA … which would help explain her decision to allow her daughter to go to man’s world, and explain the red-white-and-blue uniform, all in one fell swoop. But time travel raises the issue of two versions of the same person existing at the same time, which I don’t believe Byrne even tried to explain.
Why is the Invisible Hood being called "Invisible Justice" now?
I don’t know. Maybe to avoid other “hoods” like Archie’s Black Hood and Marvel’s The Hood, who is currently on TV? But Invisible Hood’s Golden Age strip was inexplicably called “Invisible Justice” (while the character was Invisible Hood), so blame the Golden Age.
Anybody remember what Roy Thomas called the character in All-Star Squadron? The name change may go back to that.
Also never heard of this "Justice Alliance" consisting of Captain Comet, Prince Ra-Man, Automan, Tiger-Man and Congorilla.
Sounds like DC’s answer to Agents of Atlas.
Putting Niles Caulder, Will Magnus, Martin Stein and Simon Stagg together as "The Supermen Project" feels like they're trying to create a DC version of the guys who ended up creating Adam Warlock.
There was some hoo-ha about an island of mad scientists a few years back, and Magnus was one of them. That always seemed odd to me, as he had always been presented as heroic, but here he was hanging out with some pretty bad guys, like T.O. Morrow and Professor Ivo. I always wondered if I’d missed something. Anyway, given that, it’s not a stretch he’d hang out with Stagg, who was always a bad guy, and Caulder, who has been established post-Crisis as actually causing the accidents that created the Doom Patrol. Which is pretty awful.
But yeah, this is the first I’ve heard of those particular characters hanging out together. I have to say that doing this, and establishing the "Justice Alliance," just feels too writerly to me, like when Byrne tried to establish that all of Spider-Man's major foes were created in the same accident that created him. Some things don't need to be tied together. Life can be random.
And sometimes I prefer it. Instead of having one story with all these characters, I prefer they all have their own story. Simon Stagg needs to be over there with Metamorpho, and Niles Caulder over there with the Doom Patrol, and Will Magnus over three with the Metal Men. That gives us three backstories, and a richer, more eclectic historic tapestry. Making them all one story diminishes them and the DCU.
Adding a little to what Cap said:
#3: I believe you can find more about the World Forger & Perpetua in Scott Snyder's Justice League run.
#4: I suspect the Aztar name for the Spectre was introduced in the Eclipso series from the 90s.
#5: I haven't read the most recent Hawkman series from 2018 (though I've heard good things!), but I bet you can find out more about Ktar Deathbringer and that ancient evil there.
#6: I'm just glad both Shining Knights still exist. I love 'em both.
#7: The Demon Knights were one of the best New 52 inventions, and I'm glad they're acknowledged.
#12: I'm not sure if we've seen the Justice Alliance before, but we might read more about them in Mark Waid's Superboy stories in Action Comics, since Captain Comet is making appearances there.
#13: The Superman Project was introduced in Doomsday Clock. I don't know if their backstory has been tweaked a bit or not, but Waid's not pulling this out of nowhere. Cap, I think you're thinking of the mad scientists on Oolong Island during 52; Magnus was kidnapped and brought there (and denied his meds to help with his manic/depression, so he wasn't quite himself while he was there).
In All Star Squadron #31 (Ma'84), Roy Thomas calls him Invisible Hood but I've heard the Invisible Justice name too. Perhaps because "Hood" may have a KKK connection.
All these minor Quality heroes were supposed to be killed off but most of them were brought back. Miss America as the first replacement for Wonder Woman, Red Torpedo in Starman and one of the Relative Heroes, Blindside, believed that the Invisible Hood who was now killed in 1974 by the Mist was his grandfather.
"My name is Barry Allan. Once I was the Flash, the Fastest Man Alive. I'm retired now, but in my day, I probably saw more of the Multiverse -- past, present, and future -- than anyone who ever lived. Along the way, I've also been involved in crisis-level events that have, at time, made history a little... malleable, like a story given subtle differences by multiple narrators. That makes me uncomfortable. I prefer my history structured, documented. That's whay, as its most traveled witness... it's my responsibility to record it."
"Like a story given subtle differences by multiple narrators." That's pretty much it. There's a whole lot here I'm encountering for the first time. If it's not explained in the endnotes, I've decided to just go with it as "the way things are now" and not worry about it so much. (If only DC had done somethning like this post-Flashpoint I may not have been so down on the "New 52.") Here are just a few random observations that occurred to me while I was reading...
For those of you not reading this series, it is composed of montage pages with appropriately-placed captions.
Regarding the "trophies" Bob mentioned, I don't know how he got them, either, but among them are: the Bell, Jar & Wheel, two LSH flight rings, a batarang, Skeets, Starman's original star-rod, Superman's cape, a bottle of Gingold, Wild Dog's mask, Dream's helm, Gog's staff, and Zatarra's top hat. Also pictured is what looks like Irving Forbush's helmet, but might be intented to be the original Red Tornado's helmet and is simply drawn wrong. His collection is not quite as extensive as the Maesto's from Future Imperfect, but I left several object unidentified.
The Endless appear right at the beginning, but weren't mentioned at all in the 1986 version (for obvious reasons).
The "Fourth World" and the New Gods came into being "long before Earth's creation" in this version. I don't like that. I always took the "Old Gods" to be the Greek and Roman gods (and I'm pretty sure that's what Jack Kirby had in mind, too). This means the New Gods have been around for millions of years, not merely thousands. That's a significant difference.
The Last Days of the Justice Society of America has been moved from post-Crisis to 1951, shortly after the JSA disbanded. I am ambivalent about this one, myself, although it does go a long way toward explaining their long abscence from the public eye as well as how and why they are so young.
Issue #2 is out next week!
Destiny did appear in History of the DC Universe.
The idea that "Terrible" Turpin was Brooklyn as a youth is a late 80s theory. Turpin even tells Superman about his WWII experiences with Superman thinking that he must have been a boy at the time!
The Last Days of the Justice Society change is a head-scratcher!
I suspect the Aztar name for the Spectre was introduced in the Eclipso series from the 90s.
Ahh. I bet you’re right. All I remember from that series is that it killed off a bunch of characters, including the new WIldcat and, I think, the new Dr. Mid-Nite, which seemed a waste to me. They'd barely had time to get started! I think Creeper, too, and some other random characters. Dumb story, I thought at the time, and promptly forgot it.
I'm not sure if we've seen the Justice Alliance before, but we might read more about them in Mark Waid's Superboy stories in Action Comics, since Captain Comet is making appearances there.
Cool, because I plan to read that series.
The Superman Project was introduced in Doomsday Clock.
Was it mostly in the back-of-the-book text material? Because I re-read Doomsday Clock a few months ago, but did NOT re-read the text material, and that foursome doesn't ring any bells. And the first time I read the actual story it didn't sink in, because at the time I didn't know how much would "stick" and I held it at arm's length. This time I absorbed it better. But not the text material.
All these minor Quality heroes were supposed to be killed off
I remember them dying! I thought at the time “what a waste,” because there are no bad characters, just bad writers, so there was potential there. Of course, that was about 10 multiversal reboots ago, and they’re probably all alive again, so I needn’t have worried.
Like a story given subtle differences by multiple narrators.
Heh. That’s pretty on the nose.
The Endless appear right at the beginning,
Well, they are the Endless. It’s right in the name! But seriously, I’m glad Waid included them at the beginning where, as conceptual beings, they would have come into being as soon as someone or something thought of them. Morpheus and The Dreaming would have come into being, for example, the first time anything dreamed, not just humans. And Destiny would be even older, being created at, what, the beginning of time? As soon as events began moving forward, and therefore needed a narrative? Or maybe earlier? I confess I’m not quite sure of Destiny’s full parameters.
The "Fourth World" and the New Gods came into being "long before Earth's creation" in this version. I don't like that.
Me neither. I took the beginning of New Gods to be the end of the Norse gods (and maybe a little dig at Marvel’s Thor). Or maybe all the gods of Indo-European descent, including Greco-Roman and Egyptian. But yeah, I took it to mean the New Gods were literally that, coming on the scene no earlier than 1,000 CE. Making them older by millions of years makes them the Old Gods.
1986 "neat idea" - Tommy Tomorrow and Kamandi are the same person (from two different realities)
I remember that, and remember it being controversial for some reason. Is that still true?
2025 "neat idea" - "Brooklyn" of the Boy Commandos and Dan "Terrible" Turpin are the same person
I already knew this, so it must have been established before New History #1. I actually like this idea, because how many people can there be that are that exact Kirby Kharacter? Somebody like that is in almost every Kirby series – I assume it’s based on Kirby himself – but I’ve never actually met anyone like that. The more of them that are the same person, the more plausible it is to me.
The Last Days of the Justice Society of America has been moved from post-Crisis to 1951, shortly after the JSA disbanded. I am ambivalent about this one, myself, although it does go a long way toward explaining their long abscence from the public eye as well as how and why they are so young.
In my head canon, Last Days ALWAYS took place right after the Senate hearings where the JSA quit rather than unmask, which my head canon says happened in 1951, and that’s why All-Star Comics became All-Star Western. I know that doesn’t always match up to DC’s official chronology at a given time. But I don’t care. It’s what makes sense to me, so I'm sticking with it.
The idea that "Terrible" Turpin was Brooklyn as a youth is a late 80s theory. Turpin even tells Superman about his WWII experiences with Superman thinking that he must have been a boy at the time!
Maybe that’s where I learned it.
Of course, Dan Turpin would have to be pushing ninety to have been even a kid during the war. Heck, a child born the day the war ended will be turning eighty soon.
I think the Superman Project was mostly in the backmatter of Doomsday Clock, but it came to the fore in the Firestorm plotline in the early issues. I don't think I ever read the thing as a whole bunch (or maybe I did, just because it was so late by the end), so I'm not sure how everything hangs together.
As for the Invisible Hood, my main bit of surprise at that is that, post-Crisis, that story in All-Star Squadron has been retconned so Uncle Sam’s original Freedom Fighters (with Neon the Unknown and such) now defended against this earth’s Pearl Harbor attack, instead of an alternate earth, and lost. I’d be really interested in seeing more of that story — particularly how Uncle Sam could know about it, but it still somehow manage to be a sneak attack that surprised the US military.
If it happened that way (without opening up a can of conspiratorial worms suggesting FDR knew about Pearl Harbor and let it happen, a rabbit hole I think it’s best to avoid), it’d probably be best to have a communications breakdown somewhere along the line. Maybe Sam told someone he trusted to relay the message to the president, but he was killed or otherwise taken off the board. Or maybe there’s a mystic explanation, and the same force that gave Sam the visions prevented him from communicating any specifics about them, and he only managed to get a few heroes onboard in the time he had. We'll likely never know!
Just for comparison, I got my Zero Hour trade and checked its revised timeline. For the Golden Age period and earlier:
*The WWI period just lists ENEMY ACE and BALLOON BUSTER
*1919--DREAM imprisoned
*1935--DOCTOR OCCULT with no mention of the non-powered guys
*1938--THE FLASH (Jay Garrick) pushed up a bit earlier to, I'm guessing, take Superman's place thematically, at least.
--CRIMSON AVENGER
Then the expected Golden Age heroes from 1939 to 1942 with these additions:
--STEEL THE INDESTRUCTIBLE MAN (later Commander Steel)
--SCARAB (still trying to make him a thing!)
--FURY (Helena Kosmatos) in 1941, about a year earlier than the rest of the Young All-Stars, presumably to replace Wonder Woman
Of course, Captain Marvel and Plastic Man were removed from the Golden Age.
In my head canon, Last Days ALWAYS took place right after the Senate hearings where the JSA quit rather than unmask, which my head canon says happened in 1951
The more I think about it, the more I like this idea.
I have often given thought to the idea of a consistent timeline for the Marvel universe, and it would have utilized similar jiggery pokery. I would have built it around that Sub-Mariner. Unlike Captain America, whose time "on ice" can simply be extended (from 1945 until "ten years ago"), Subby has to pass the decades the old fashioned way, one day at a time. Let's start by assuming the lifespane of an Atlanean (or an Atlantean hybrid, anyway), is roughly twice that of homo sapiens. In my timeline, he would still have spent seven years (1955-1962) wandering the bowery of New York as an amnesiac. But it wouldn't have been the Fantastic Four who snapped him out of it. Beyond that, his solo series (from Tales to Astonish #70 through Sub-Mariner #72) would have occurred more-or-less in "real time" (1965-1974), with the exception of any interaction he may have had with the characters of the Marvel Universe proper (there's less than you might think). That would account for the stories in which Betty Dean came back into his life for a time without having to bend over backwards to account for her age. When the Fantastic Four come on the scene, he is, say, 85 years old (or early 40s in "human years") rather than his early 40s as he must have been in 1963.
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