Unless I'm missing it (and, if I am, some moderator-type should feel free to move my comment there), the good folks at Captain Comic's have avoided the firestorm that has hit certain places because Michael B.Jordan has been cast as Johnny Storm in the forthcoming FF film. I'm fine with the choice-- the movies are their own entity-- but I'm annoyed that they've stated Sue and Johnny will not be siblings. I think that decision removes an essential part of the FF's squabbling family dynamic.

Anyone else?

 

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ClarkKent_DC said:

I'm lost, too, Emerkeith Davyjack. You dropped this piece of information with no explanation as to its relevance to this discussion, and your explanation, belated as it is, merely asserts that it is true but STILL doesn't explain its relevance. 

If you've got something to say, come out and say it -- plainly, simply and directly. 

Exactly.  This is what I am asking as well.

Tec 445, Figs, and Clark have all made excellent points, with which I concur.

On the face of it, I think Hollywood's dearth of black heroes (and non-wasp heroes generally) is a crying shame and should be remedied at any and every oppportunity that presents itself.

I think they are less racist and more risk-averse. People tend to support characters they relate to, and at the simplest level, that can be race, at least for some, or at least that's the perception.

It's like the story about the Black Panther--they covered his face because distributors wouldn't distribute the comic in the South because southern readers wouldn't buy it. Whether that's actually what would happen at each level is hard to say, because they didn't risk it.

But three years later, there was the Falcon on the cover, and there were no stories of problems that I heard. It's hard to believe Southern readers changed so much in three years. The Cosby Show didn't hurt for that reason, but there aren't many shows with leads that aren't white still today.

It's interesting that Hancock, the 2008 super-hero movie, never had talk of a sequel, even though it took in $620 worldwide. Man of Steel grossed $688 million five years later with IMAX tickets to boost the total more, and the sequel is on its way.

I weep for humanity.

I taste the salt in your bitter tears of regret. Rush Limbaugh was just quoted recently as saying that Republicans have blocked Obama at every turn because America's first black President has everyone "scared" and things will go better if Hilary is elected even though she's from that other gender dealy thing.

I'm lost, too, Emerkeith Davyjack.

The only point I see is that those who are upset at them being siblings will be even more upset about what that means about their parents. My only interest is if they feel the need to explain it and how clumsily they do it. I suppose we'll need yet another origin, so it'll probably come up in that segment.

-- MSA

  My joys these days are very few.  That may change as time moves on but for now...  nope.  A candle in an infinitely dark room may still give off light but it's clear that the darkness has won the day.



ClarkKent_DC said:

Mark S. Ogilvie said:

That's you, but not me.  There is a certain power and comfort in anger that can help buttress a person against the day in/day out frustrations that so fill life.  There is so little to be happy about and so much to get angry/worry about in our society and so little that anyone can do about it either way, at least when I get angry about what's done to fictional characters in the name of edgy marketing or writer's ego I know that it's merely an indulgence and it helps drain off some of the anger.  It's like watching one of those ridiculous media shows like crossfire where you have democrats and republicans shouting talking points at each other.  It's all useless and phony, designed to get everyone angry and when the credits roll you can see them all laughing and joking, content that they've made their money and stirred the pot for their sides.  At least when I get mad over a bad comic book story I know I'm getting angry over something that isn't being represented as real or that important. 

But I'll get angry anyway if I wish and after that I'll simply avoid it as much as I can.  But it takes time to just leave and forget about something when you've done it for a lot of years.  You follow a character for over a decade and then have someone come along and trash the character it doesn't mean that the character is suddenly banished from mind and memory.  I give leeway to different medium interpretations as now if they do put a mixed race element into the FF movie it won't bother me at all, but I can see the reason it would bother others.  Perhaps not the race element itself as much as anger at the producer/writer who looks at the traditional and says 'The hell with this, the people who liked this are idiots, they don't know what they like until I tell them what they like" and that's been in my opinion the philosophy behind a lot of comic book to movie interpretations  that have featured massive shifts in character design and behavior.

 

 

I ran across this today:

  Funny, I was just thinking that a problem with the FF's origin (I forget which writer might have said this) was that Reed and Ben took his girlfriend and her kid brother up in a rocket.  I didn't think it strange at the time, but I think when I read the FF origin for the first time I had just finished reading Rocket Ship Galileo, the idea of kids going up in rockets just didn't seem that strange to me, nor was the idea of the girl friend going along strange.  Course that was back when I thought that the manned space program would continue on a straightforward course and we'd move onto toward the stars in my lifetime.

 

I think they are less racist and more risk-averse.

Yes, they always have their reasons...

Given that there are huge problems with representation and diversity in popular entertainment, which sends out negative messages about and to minorities every day, 'risk averse' functions just as well as racism in my book.  Unless producers/creatives etc are taking actively deliberate steps to tackle the problem, they are part of the problem, happily perpetuating racism, and comforting racists, as far as I'm concerned.

I always thought of that problem (bringing Johnny and Sue along for the joyride) as a very typical comic book thing of the time. Even the "more realistic" FF often behave as, well, childhood wish-fulfillment fantasy figures. Of course, in a world where some smart guy can build his own spaceship, he would naturally bring along his pals 'n' gals. Like if you're a little kid and you build a secret fort.

Mark S. Ogilvie said:

  Funny, I was just thinking that a problem with the FF's origin (I forget which writer might have said this) was that Reed and Ben took his girlfriend and her kid brother up in a rocket.  I didn't think it strange at the time, but I think when I read the FF origin for the first time I had just finished reading Rocket Ship Galileo, the idea of kids going up in rockets just didn't seem that strange to me, nor was the idea of the girl friend going along strange.  Course that was back when I thought that the manned space program would continue on a straightforward course and we'd move onto toward the stars in my lifetime.

 

Figserello said:

Unless producers/creatives etc are taking actively deliberate steps to tackle the problem, they are part of the problem, happily perpetuating racism, and comforting racists, as far as I'm concerned.

If Hancock made that much money and there was no sequel, it makes you wonder. The hero (the very popular, good actor Will Smith) was black and his girlfriend (the very popular, good actress Charlize Theron) was white.

The executives need to have the courage to recognize that the large number of racist people in the 1950s-1960s has morphed into a noisy minority. Tell them and any contrary stockholders that you don't need their @#@*$ money! I don't think the pennies belonging to these people that would be lost would even be noticeable in the bottom line.

Mr. Silver Age said:

It's interesting that Hancock, the 2008 super-hero movie, never had talk of a sequel, even though it took in $620 worldwide. Man of Steel grossed $688 million five years later with IMAX tickets to boost the total more, and the sequel is on its way.

Richard Willis said:

If Hancock made that much money and there was no sequel, it makes you wonder. The hero (the very popular, good actor Will Smith) was black and his girlfriend (the very popular, good actress Charlize Theron) was white.

I don't think we can blame racism for the lack of a Hancock sequel.  Will Smith is an A-list movie star.  Hancock was the 8th movie in a row he starred in that made over $100 million at the box office in North America, which is a record.  I think he can get any movie made that he wants to, hence After Earth!  But there actually has been talk of a Hancock sequel, with Smith, Theron, and director Peter Berg all saying they wanted to do it, and writers were attached at one point.  Berg was asked a year ago or so about it and said:

We’ve been talking about the sequel between us, Will Smith, Michael Mann and Akiva Goldman and myself. We’re all interested but we literally just have trouble getting into the same room at the same time. We did have a series of meetings last year and started to hash out an idea for a sequel and Will Smith actually had the idea. So I think it will happen, it’s just a question of timing.

No indication that Columbia Pictures doesn't want to do a sequel, and even if they didn't, I'm sure Smith could take Hancock somewhere else.  The thing is, Hancock came out in 2008, and Smith had another picture that year called Seven Pounds, and then he took a break from movies until Men in Black 3 came out in 2012.  You can do that when your net worth is $200 million!  In the meantime, he was busy being a producer on a TV show his wife starred in, and he was also trying to get careers going for his son in movies and daughter in music.  After Earth was so important to him that he turned down  the lead role in Django Unchanged.  Take a look at his IMDB page - he's got 1 movie in post-production, 2 in pre-production, and 3 listed as "announced", Hancock 2 being one of them.  I think if he hadn't taken a 4 year hiatus it would have happened already.  I don't think racism is holding a sequel back

 

Probably, since Smith and Theron are both busy on projects and not just sitting by the phone, they have to find a time when both are available, along with the director et al.

It was at the time and no one writing comics understood the kind of complexities involved in building something like the Saturn 5, the new fabrication techniques needed for the engine bell alone took a while to come up with. But at the time the FF was Stan's idea of a lot of counter to the general wisdom, the young kid who was not a sidekick, the woman who knew the secret identity and so on. Stan took a risk and taking a risk is something Hollywood doesn't do easily. Not with the kind of money that is needed to put on your average blockbuster. I and my family could live for a generation or two on what the movie that 'bombs' at the box office makes. So I don't think race has much to do with why more diversity isn't shown, I think it's simple play it safe and go along to get along.

JD DeLuzio said:

I always thought of that problem (bringing Johnny and Sue along for the joyride) as a very typical comic book thing of the time. Even the "more realistic" FF often behave as, well, childhood wish-fulfillment fantasy figures. Of course, in a world where some smart guy can build his own spaceship, he would naturally bring along his pals 'n' gals. Like if you're a little kid and you build a secret fort.

Mark S. Ogilvie said:

  Funny, I was just thinking that a problem with the FF's origin (I forget which writer might have said this) was that Reed and Ben took his girlfriend and her kid brother up in a rocket.  I didn't think it strange at the time, but I think when I read the FF origin for the first time I had just finished reading Rocket Ship Galileo, the idea of kids going up in rockets just didn't seem that strange to me, nor was the idea of the girl friend going along strange.  Course that was back when I thought that the manned space program would continue on a straightforward course and we'd move onto toward the stars in my lifetime.

 

 'risk averse' functions just as well as racism in my book.

I don't think they see the problems of representation and diversity in popular entertainment as their burden, they see their burden being to produce a movie that will be appealing to the most people who spend money on movies, so they can make a living and produce more movies.

I wouldn't say Stan and Jack were being racist in 1964 when they changed the Black Panther's mask, they were being risk-averse. Rather than criticize the risk-averse, I applaud those who don't let the conventional wisdom get in their way. Clearly, the FF producers are some of those guys. I'm sure they understood there would be outrage when they cast him.

It's easier to mix things up in an ensemble, which is why the JLA offers some options, especially since there's been a black GL since the SA and a female Hawk since forever. 

It'll probably all be forgotten when they cast a woman as Doctor Doom...

-- MSA

"Ms. Doomette"?

Mr. Silver Age said:

 'risk averse' functions just as well as racism in my book.

I don't think they see the problems of representation and diversity in popular entertainment as their burden, they see their burden being to produce a movie that will be appealing to the most people who spend money on movies, so they can make a living and produce more movies.

I wouldn't say Stan and Jack were being racist in 1964 when they changed the Black Panther's mask, they were being risk-averse. Rather than criticize the risk-averse, I applaud those who don't let the conventional wisdom get in their way. Clearly, the FF producers are some of those guys. I'm sure they understood there would be outrage when they cast him.

It's easier to mix things up in an ensemble, which is why the JLA offers some options, especially since there's been a black GL since the SA and a female Hawk since forever. 

It'll probably all be forgotten when they cast a woman as Doctor Doom...

-- MSA

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