With all the curiosity, anger, suspense, excitement and out-right dread over DC's upcoming brand new changes that will have universe-shaking events that will alter our heroes forever, I thought that it would only be fitting to discuss when the same things happened after the Crisis On Infinite Earths. I will be honest and say, at the time, that I had my fair share of trepidations, doubts and shrieking nights of sheer horror! That's an exaggeration, of course (barely) but as I sit here in my "I Got Erased By the Anti-Matter Wall And All I Got Was This Lousy T-Shirt....And a Bad Reboot!" ...uh..T-shirt, I have come to realize that it wasn't all terrible. In fact, some of the changes were better than the Earth-One continuity! (Forgive Me, Mister Silver Age, For I Have Sinned...) Examples, IMHO, are:
- The New Wonder Woman--beautiful, strong and sexy, Princess Diana became a hard hitting warrior, justifying her position as the #1 Super-Heroine. Ever.
- Alfred always being there--from butler come lately to surrogate father, Mister Pennyworth got his best characterization after 1985.
- Hawkworld--though I am fond of the E-1 Katar Hol, I liked this new version though he underwent far too many changes and has been nearly forgotten as is his sc-fi background. The Savage Hawkman indeed!
- L.EG.I.O.N.-- another interesting book with alien heroes plus favorites like Captain Comet and Lar (Mon-El/Valor) Gand.
- Guy Gardner-- the most reckless and unpredictable hero ever from "One Punch!" to falling for sweet Ice to losing his ring, always fun (except for that alien form later, meh!)
- Brainiac--he evolved from sideshow annoyance to intergalactic hazard yet still remained true to his origins.
- Tim Drake--why Batman needs a Robin.
- Vertigo--Swamp Thing, The Sandman, Doom Patrol, need I continue?
Which changes did you like? Approve of? Dislike? Never read comics again (though why would you be reading this anyway?)?
Replies
Well, let's see ...
The big compensation for losing Earth 2 was how the 40's heroes became the previous generation and the DCU suddenly had a whole slew of new themes to build stories around. Legacies, generations, respect for our elders, curiosity about their lives etc.
Starman probably exploited this to best effect, but Spectre used it well also.
There's no point arguing things like whether the pre-crisis or post crisis Superman was better. The fact is that changing some fundamental aspects of the mythos allowed them to continue telling new stories (or the old stories in new ways) for another few decades. The Super-marriage alone allowed loads of stories to be told (or re-told) with a whole new slant and emotional grounding.
I agree with everything Clark said, and also what Figs said about the Golden Age heroes being the inspiration. I started reading DC on a regular basis only a few years before COIE and there wasn't much that was appealing to me about the JSA in the mid-80's. They were just old guys who had their heyday decades earlier, and from another dimension to boot.
I'll add two:
- Wally West as the Flash. I had no great attachment to Barry Allen, so Wally was my Flash. Wally as nowhere near as perfect, nor was he as boring as Barry was in the early and mid 80's. Barry was used much better as inspiration.
- Hal Jordan went from being the sole focus of the Green Lantern mythos to a staring role alongside others as the Corps took prominence. Some might say that's a distinction without a difference, but to me, the GLC - much like the JSA - went from background filler to starring role.
Those are good points but I sat through The Last Days of the Justice Society, the Post-Crisis Infinity Inc and Young All-Stars. It clearly wasn't the same, Roy lost a lot of energy and momentum and spent way too much time on explaining how events happened now (well, then!).
I wasn't crazy about having eight Green Lanterns on Earth as it diluted the characters and made the rest seem inferior to Hal Jordan as he had to be "the Greatest GL of All".
It took me awhile to warm up to the public Lex Luthor who always got away with it, despite all his plots and schemes. It just hit me that he becoming President was a lot like Norman Osborn's rise to government power.
I liked Wally as THE Flash. He had some great runs (no pun intended).
And I forgot Peter David's amazing stint on Aquaman and Young Justice both highlights then and now!
Most of my ideas have already been mentioned:
Fresh starts for Superman, Wonder Woman, the Justice League and Flash that redefined the characters.
New supporting characters such as Maggie Sawyer, Julia and Vanessa Kapatelis and Max Lord.
The integration of Blue Beetle, Captain Atom, Captain Marvel and Plastic Man into the regular DCU.
Less confusing origins for Black Canary and Red Tornado (no more they were born on Earth-2, no 1, no 2 again)
The idea of older forebears who are now retired (allowing DC to keep its WWII roots while also telling modern stories)
In fact, some of the changes were better than the Earth-One continuity! (Forgive Me, Mister Silver Age, For I Have Sinned...)
Hurm.
You ascribe a lotta stuff to Crisis for which it doesn't deserve credit/blame. If your point is that DC has managed to do some good things since 1985, well, even a blind squirrel finds a few nuts. I liked 'Mazing Man.
I don't think the establishment of Vertigo resulted from Crisis. Neither did Superman's reboot, which people often group in with Crisis since they happened so closely together. But it was later and in fact completely negated Supergirl's sacrifice, becoming the first screwup arising out of Crisis. It was a good couple of months.
I agree with Jeff that eliminating Superman's career as a boy was a bad move, but I will never understand why they thought it impacted the Legion to the point of nearly negating their existence. That always struck me as a total overreaction, and I had John Byrne explain it to me directly, in person at his house (long story). But it was totally unrelated to Crisis.
I agree that Wally stepping in for Barry was a good change and brought some new life to the character. The animated shows took full advantage of that, I think. That probably was the best outcome of Crisis. And, of course, it's now been undone.
Being a big fan of Earth-2, I don't think combining the universes--and the reasons they gave about it being too "confusing for fans"--was a good idea. It created a lotta people who should've been showing up for every disaster who never did. Having pockets of heroes who required maybe a panel to explain why they were showing up this time but never before seems the best way to keep them off stage until required.
I'm surprised they didn't try to introduce younger versions of those characters on Earth-2 to show new heroes taking over. That seemed a logical move, but they never really wanted to treat Earth-2 like a real place, it was just a toybox where they stored the toys until it was time to use them.
If one of your good points is Hawkworld, well, all I can say is I'm glad you and Mopee liked it. But I do agree that Guy Gardner was a great addition to JLI, and those titles were truly unique and some of the best fun that period had to offer. Likewise, I'm a reasonable fan of Tim Drake (although mostly because of The Spoiler), but I'm not sure those were connected to Crisis.
I agree with Jeff that the bad far outweighed the good in terms of direct results. But, as you surmised, I would think that. It goes with the job.
-- MSA
I never was confused by Earth-One and Earth-Two, either. Now the Post-Crisis Earth and Earth-Zero.....
I wasn't specifically dealing with direct changes from the Crisis, merely the directions DC went after it.
As for Hawkworld, if you mean how they tried to explain both Hawkman's being in the SA JLA and the Post-Crisis JLI after retroactively eradicating said Winged Wonder who survived the Crisis and met Bryne's Superman several times. yeah that was BAD and painful and confusing but the first year or so of this new Katar Hol was interesting as we see him change his mindset and core beliefs and becomes a hero. That's why I still miss him as a character and a bit miffed that what we have now is the Savage Hawkman! Why not just call him Hawkman the Barbarian!
But no forgiveness, I see. ;-)
Mr. Silver Age said:
Unfortunately, it took awhile for the cream to start rising from the aftermath of the original Crisis on Infinite Earths, for we had to get through everything between Legends and Zero Hour before the good points of a post CoIE universe became known.
But in my humble opinion, about the only two I can think of is the Justice Society of America regaining some prominence within the DC Universe and everyone being on one Earth to begin with, because as much as I loved and was able to keep up with the original Earth-2 continuity, having a second Earth (let alone the other 50) just didn't make that much sense to me. Mark Waid's Hypertime theory was more valid than a multiverse, although is that still in play now?
Tim Truman's Hawkman and Ostrander's Hawkworld were good superhero comics. So things took a while to settle down after COIE? That was always going to happen! It'd be unrealistic to have 50 reboots all to hit the stands in the month after COIE ended. For one thing, I'm sure they wanted to see how the brave, unprecedented experiment with Man of Steel went down with the market before doing the same thing with the rest.
Poor Hawkman, Truman/Ostranders great reimagined character in particular, was a victim of 'just how things are'.
(Yes, they are launching 50 reboots now, but 21st century DC are standing on the shoulders of giants in this respect. At least they have some kind of map, which the post-COIE guys didn't have. Even today, it would be madness to give bestsellers like Batman and GL anything but the softest of reboots, and they weren't any crazier in 1985. However, leaving Batman and GL relatively untouched will leave lose threads that will undo the whole tapestry too. Just watch.)
-
1
-
2
of 2 Next