To avoid further hijacking the "Movies I Have Seen Lately" thread, and because there seems to be some interest in men's attire, I've created this discussion to pursue it. (If I'm wrong abut the level of interest, this discussion can die on the vine harmlessly, with no offence to me.)
It's been only in the last five years or so that I've been something of a clothes horse. For nearly thirty years, my day-to-day wear was a uniform. But, when in civilian clothes, I was never one of the "t-shirt, blue jeans, and baseball cap" crowd. I was a bit more upscale than that, but otherwise, I never paid much attention to what I wore. The one exception was in my civilian suits. I'd always admired the look of the suit-dressed man of the 1930's, so, twenty-five years ago, I went to a tailor and showed him a men's wear advertisement from a 1930's magazine and directed him to make me two suits pattered after that. He did, and they fit wonderfully.
Since I retired from the Navy, I've taken more of an interest in my clothing. I frequent the various men's wear blogs on line (The Gentlemen's Gazette, being the best), and I've learnt a great deal about the details of men's clothing. The Good Mrs. Benson always said I should find a hobby, and as it turns out, clothing was it. I started by increasing my casual wear. Contemporary dress trousers pose a problem for me, because the current style is to have them hang from the hips, when trousers should properly come to the waist. Consequently, I went and had a half-dozen pair of dress trousers tailored to fit at my waist, along with adding pleats and cuffs. I was lucky with dress shirts. Van Heusen makes a classic dress shirt that happens to fit me perfectly, so I bought eight of those.
As far as suits, believe it or not, those two suits from twenty-five years ago still fit. (I weigh ten pounds less now than when I had them made.) However, my cargo has, shall we say, shifted in the last quarter-century, so I took them back to a tailor to have them altered to adjust. (He was impressed at how good a condition the suits were in after all this time.) Since then, I've had him tailor a third suit (because I needed a good summerweight suit)---aye, from that same 1930's men's-wear ad which I've kept all these years---and two sport coats.
Then,there were the accessories. I shifted from belts to suspenders. First, because they are more comfortable than a belt. Second, because they give you a straight silhouette, rather than the cinching at the middle created by a belt. There's a learning curve with suspenders, but it doesn't take long to master.
Then, as my pal Jeff pointed out, some sage fellow stated, "A man is never fully dressed without a hat." That presented a bit of a problem, though. It's impossible to really know how you'll look in a given hat until you try it on, and there were no brick-and-mortar haberdasheries near me from which I could select a fedora. There are plenty of sources of good dress fedoras on line. I became versed in the various details and styles of fedoras---snap brim, slouch brim, short brim, crown types, dents, bands, and curls. Still, I ordered and sent back seven or eight possibilities because, once I received them and tried them on, they didn't look quite right. Finally, I found an on-line hatter who was gracious enough to work with me, and I found the perfect fedora for me. Now, I've got two; one in steel-grey (to go with my black and grey suits) and one in brown (to go with my brown suit). I also have a black bowler, American style, from the 1930's that I purchased at a flea market.
I have an eye on another suit, a single-breasted suit (all of my others are double-breasted) with a double-breasted vest. In the 1931 Dracula, the character of Jonathan Harker (David Manners) wore a suit of that type in one scene. I'm putting it on hold for awhile, as I'm having trouble justifying it. My need for a suit doesn't come up all that often. Believe it or not, the Good Mrs. Benson doesn't like to dress to the nine's nearly as much as I do, so my occasions to wear a suit don't arise as often as I'd like. ("If you wear a suit, then I have to get dressed up.")
Now, on to your posts on the subject, over on the "Movies" discussion . . .
Mr. DeLuzio, you indicated that you did not replace your fedora because "The 2000s saw the style usurped by Angry Young Nerds." Sadly, there's truth in that. Your comment reminded me of this image I came across not too long ago . . .
That sort of consequence can be avoided. But, as I indicated, it can take a great deal of effort to obtain a genuine classic look in a fedora, and I don't fault you for just skipping on it.
Flatcaps have their own pinache and work just fine. They're just not for me. Nor is the ubiquitous baseball cap. Oh, I own quite a few Navy baseball caps---I even had one specially made. But they're not for social wear. I wear them when I'm outdoors in situations when work clothing is called for.
Jeff, old buddy, your post leads me to think that you are man after my own heart when it comes to men's wear. I certainly like your style sense. Wearing a bowtie (when not in formal or semi-formal attire) is a bold move these days, and I bet you pull off the look just fine. I like the idea of an ascot. I considered it for myself, but I don't think they would work with my size and build. I do appreciate the way they fit that middle ground between going open collar and wearing a necktie.
I didn't really notice before I turned my attention to clothing, but it's striking how poorly most men dress to-day. And I'm not talking about just on the street, in day-to-day life. Last year, the GMB and I went out to an upscale, five-star restaurant for our anniversary (one of the few occasions when she didn't mind going all out in her appearance). During dinner, I happened to notice the people at a near-by four-top---two couples. The ladies were dressed to the nines. Cocktail dresses, nothing expensive, but certainly stylish; their hair elegantly coiffed. The guys were a different story. One of them wore a plaid flannel shirt and blue jeans; the other was "resplendant" in his blue jeans, "dress" t-shirt, and baseball cap. Both of them had beard stubble; I couldn't tell if they were following the fashion of the time or simply hadn't bothered to shave before going out.
Setting aside all the excuses some men proclaim for not dressing well, I couldn't help but think shouldn't those fellows have shown their ladies the respect of going to as much trouble in their appearances for the occasion as the gals did?
Replies
I guess it’s my turn to pitch in.
Suit and Tie:
My wife and I would dress for weddings and funerals. Otherwise, I would be in jeans and either a T-shirt or “polo” shirt. Gayle would dress similarly.
When we worked for the Elections office in L.A. County (where we met), her job was a systems analyst (a “translator” between regular sections and computer programmers). Except for Election Night, Gayle didn’t deal with the public, so her dress was normally casual.
I started working for that office as a temporary employee in 1966. When the Gubernatorial Election was over, I was one of the very few that was not laid off. That Spring I officially became a permanent employee, at which point I was told to wear a shirt and tie. The following Spring I was drafted into the Army. When I returned to my civilian job, over time I received five promotions until I was running a section of the department. I was still wearing a shirt and tie. If I wore a jacket it would have been on a hanger all day, so I didn’t. There were a few times when I would find myself face-to-face with a visiting member of Congress, so looking presentable was a thing.
Tuxedos:
One of Gayle’s relatives was having a black-tie wedding, so my father-in-law and I had to rent tuxedos. A first for both of us. I wore a regular tie with mine. Have never worn a bow tie, not even a clip-on.
Hats:
I’ve never been a hat person. Wore them as required when I was in the Army. I have several baseball caps, a couple of which say I’m a VN veteran. I only wear caps when I want to protect my head from the sun. I probably don’t do this often enough. I’ve never considered wearing one backwards.
Watches:
Was always annoyed when non-watch guys who thought they were cool would ask me the time. Never annoyed enough to tell them a lie. When they sent me north from a scorching replacement center in VN, I found myself in a cooler environment with moisture in the air. (That only lasted a couple of months.) The moisture in the air destroyed my cheap watch. I bought a self-winding Seiko at the PX for $30. It lasted for decades. When it finally died I gave up watches for looking at my cell phone for the time.
Walking Sticks:
I believe I mentioned this before. When I was in VN there would be a temporary traveling market just outside the gate. One of the vendors sold hand-carved walking sticks. Most of us were in our early 20s, so it didn’t make sense to practical me, who only thought of it as a cane. I only patronized the lady who did laundry.
Speaking of the book Dress for Success, first published in 1975, I read that book so many times I wore it out and had to buy a second copy. I appreciate author John T. Molloy's insights into men's style because his pronouncements about dressing to get ahead in the then-modern workplace were based on research.
Retired Chicago Tribune columnist Mary Schmich (who moonlighted as writer of the comic strip Brenda Starr, Reporter from 1985 until it ended in 2011) wrote a wonderful piece about how the fashion industry works: Some designer will roll out of bed one morning and declare, for example, "Miniskirts!" Consequently, the machinery of the fashion industry would get to work, with the fashion news media writing thinkpiece after thinkpiece about how miniskirts are the lastest thing, miniskirts being showcased on runways in Milan and New York, miniskirts filling first the high-end stores and then trickling down to mid-market stores and then to outlet malls and the cheap places where knockoffs are sold.
Notice that at no point in this process does anyone ask the customer if she wants miniskirts, Schmich wrote. And if the customer wants to buy something that isn't miniskirts, she's out of luck unless she's willing to settle for last year's clothes.
Molloy, however, describes how he tested different outfits in different scenarios to learn which combinations of garments and accessories generate the response you want if you are a would-be worker wishing to rise up the corporate ladder. One might say he was preaching a homogenized look -- especially in the sequel, 1977's The Women's Dress for Success Book -- but he would respond that he's giving you the information for how to play the game the way the game is played by people who know what you don't.
For example, there's a reason why everybody on the stage at a presidential debate is wearing a dark suit -- blue or grey, because they convey authority, but never black (too funereal) or brown (too fuddy-duddy), no patterns like pinstripes or chalk stripes (causes havoc on TV screens) and absolutely never a light color (because that does not convey authority).
I've often wished Molloy would update the book for today. I'd like to know what his research might find about some of the things we've been discussing, like whether it is acceptable to not dress up for funerals or how today one can apply for a job without wearing a necktie, but still probably should.
I also recall his statements about the importance of a good fit, how tailoring makes a great difference in how one is perceived, and how made-to-measure suits are a perfectly fine alternative to custom tailoring. (With a made-to-measure suit, the tailor takes your measurments and cuts the suit using a pre-existing pattern that corresponds to those measurments rather than drawing one from scratch.)
I recall his saying that if you wanted to know what a properly tailored outfilt looks like, watch Johnny Carson. He couldn't put his finger on it, but, he said, Carson always looked right. To my mind, a contemporary example would be Stephen Colbert. He wears Brooks Brothers, and to me, he always looks right.
In case you missed it last year (when I posted it to "Anything, Everything, or Nothing at All"), this is the latest cane I bought:
Jeff, now that's a cane. I loved the look of it before I saw the gimmick of the spy glass. I've never been much of one for canes with gimmicks or handles with animals carved into them. The one exception was I always wanted a sword cane, ever since, as a boy, I read the old Doc Savage pulps and his aide, Ham Brooks, carried one. Of course, they're available and well within my budget, now. But in this day and age, with all the attention paid to public security, it would be a iiability to carry one.
I've always avoided canes with ball handles. They're sharp-looking and great for walking sticks. But if you need a cane for support, as I still occasionally do, I've always believed ball-handled canes were less steady and that the knob of the handle would dig painfully into one's palm as he rested his weight on it.
Speaking of canes, I just recalled a story from my days as a cop. I responded to a report of a home burglary. The victim was a ninety-five-year-old blind man.. He was remarkably calm about the whole thing. The burglars had made off with his stereo and his television set, but they had not gotten his most prized possession. He went to a closet and drew out a walking stick with a knob handle. It showed the nicks and scratches of age, but it was still an elegant-looking thing. Then he pointed to the initials "WBSE" engraved in the collar.
The walking stick had belonged to Wyatt Earp. The man, when he was in college in 1925, had met Earp when Earp was on a speaking tour promoting his biography. I don't remember how the man had struck up a friendship with Earp, but Earp had given him his cane as a momento. He was proud of possessing it---and rightly so.
Jeff and Mr. Willis:
WATCHES: I own just one wrist watch---a simple thing with an elegant dial and a leather wrist band. It's a Stauer. I don't know if that's an expensive brand or not, but it looks it. It's one of those self-winding watches, by the motion of your wrist and arm. I've had to replace the wrist band twice, now. Fifteen years ago, the Good Mrs. Benson gave it to me. Not to mark any special event, but simply out of her love and devotion. I wouldn't trade it for the most expensive timepiece in the world.
CK:
The concept of style and why most people, men and women, are slaves to it has always mystified me. People will look at photos of themselves from twenty or thirty years ago and cringe at the clothes and hairstyles they wore then. I don't understand that. If you thought you looked good that way then, why do you hate it, now?
When I was barely in my twenties, I decided that I liked the looks of men's fashions in the 1930's and early '40's, and I've always built my civilian wardrobe around that. I didn't care what was fashionable to wear at the time. (For some reason, that bugged my father to no end that I refused to wear a contemporary suit.) Of course, it took time to develop my collexion of suits because you couldn't buy that kind I wanted off the rack. I had to wait until I had the wherewithal to have suits tailored.
I don't cringe at photos taken of me twenty years ago (at least, not from my clothing). I liked the look I wore then; I like it, now. That it's not in style doesn't concern me in the least.
I don't understand folks who change their minds about what they like to wear because some undetermined source says this is what's in style this year.
And speaking of slavishly following styles, CK, I loved your remark:
For example, there's a reason why everybody on the stage at a presidential debate is wearing a dark suit -- blue or grey, because they convey authority, but never black (too funereal) or brown (too fuddy-duddy), no patterns like pinstripes or chalk stripes (causes havoc on TV screens) and absolutely never a light color (because that does not convey authority).
I got a chuckle out of this image of world leaders attending the eightieth anniversay of D-Day ceremonies:
Left to right, that's U.K. Foreigh Secretary Lord Cameron, French President Emmanuel Macron, German Chancellor Olaf Sholtz, and President Biden, all wearing blue or blue-grey single-breasted suits with blue neckties. All looking like they colour-coördinated before they showed up for the event. ("What are you wearing?" "What are you wearing?") I checked other photos, and Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau also wore the same "uniform".
I understand all the clothing advice given these men by their aides, the stuff that you mentioned, CK. But when it's carried to the Nth extreme, then it becomes a point of satire in things like the photo I posted above. None of these men would lose votes or be thrown out of office simply because they wore, perhaps, a charcoal-grey suit or a brown one. Or a double-breasted suit. Ronald Reagan commonly wore brown suits, and the men in the photo above would kill for the kind of popularity Reagan enjoyed.
For all the subtle psychological "tells" that their advisors insist these leaders avoid or meet, what that image tells me is here are four men who are unable, or unwilling, to think for themselves.on a simple decision as to what suit and tie to wear. (They might also have a word with their tailors.)
<< I own just one wrist watch---a simple thing with an elegant dial and a leather wrist band. It's a Stauer. I don't know if that's an expensive brand or not, but it looks it. It's one of those self-winding watches, by the motion of your wrist and arm. I've had to replace the wrist band twice, now. Fifteen years ago, the Good Mrs. Benson gave it to me. Not to mark any special event, but simply out of her love and devotion. I wouldn't trade it for the most expensive timepiece in the world. >>
As a long-time technical (non-management) employee, I took care to observe the habits of the bosses. I noted that the bigshots wore simple watches: you'd only find elaborate ones on -- sorry to say
-- dorks and geeks.
If you're important, other people would keep you on schedule, and bells 'n' whistles (e.g., alarns) on your watch would be superfluous. Calculators built into wristwatches have to be simple, with limited displays and just a few buttons. With these you can calculate tips at lunch, and that's about it. For real technical work, you should use a scientific calculator, or a real computer.
I had a beautiful Stauer watch, but the self-winding feature didn't work for me. I guess I was too sedentary, working at a desk. (I exercised in a swimming pool, hence no watch.) The watch kept winding down. They advised me to purchase a "winder," a little dish that would gently jiggle one (1) watch enough to keep it alive, for maybe $60 .No thanks. I gifted the watch to a friend and bought another nice, simple one with a battery. This showed the time, which was all that I wanted of it.
So, I managed to look (wristwatchwise) like a manager, even if I were actually a member of the other classes.
I don't use elastic suspenders---the stretchability will leak out of the material.
Most of my suspenders are elastic, except for the matching tie & suspender sets I mentioned earlier.
And I never use clip-on suspenders; the clips will damage the fabric of your trousers. Nope, button suspenders for me.
Those are the kind I wish I had, but none of my pants have suspender buttons.
For my dress pants, I use the attachable suspender buttons. They grip to the trousers with a remarkable hold, but don't damage the fabric.
I will definitely look into those. (As a matter of fact, I already have. Now I need to buy some new suspenders!)
Apparently the phenomenon below is more common than I would have thought. ;)
Commander Benson said:
Jeff of Earth-J said:
I've been known to break out the needle and thread and sew buttons in place on my trousers. I'm just sayin' ...
That would involve buying a needle and thread and buttons and suspenders, and learning how to sew.
... and?
Those are basic life skills ... like knowing how to tie a bow tie.*
Get thee to the fabric store, friend!
*Sure, I should talk since it took me a few decades to pick up that one.
I would be willing to learn, but there is no one to teach me. When I was in junior high school, confronted with the choice bewtween Home Economics and Shop, I chose Shop.
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